I think she was next in command of the station, but she wasn't Starfleet, so I didn't count her.
The Deep Space Nine tv show is not about the Federation or Starfleet, it is about the Bajoran people and their exploration of space. Deep Space Nine is a Bajoran station run by Bajoran Emissary Sisko and Bajoran liason officer Kira with security provided by the Bajoran government. The Federation is a tenant that manages the station and the other tenants in lieu of rent. The Federation interests and space exploration is lead by Commander Sisko. But Sisko was Bajoran long before he joined the Federation. His conception was overseen by a Bajoran god Prophet. He was later named Bajoran spiritual leader, Emissary, by the Prophets. As such, all the accomplishments and deeds of Sisko and the people under his command are Bajoran accomplishments and deeds.
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
I think you can say T'Pol was second in command but T'Pol usually accompanied Captain Archer on the away missions leaving Trip in charge of the ship. While in charge of the ship Trip had to many a dangerous and delicate situation like when he put Enterprise between the Andorian and Vulcan fleets to prevent a war.
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
I think you can say T'Pol was second in command but T'Pol usually accompanied Captain Archer on the away missions leaving Trip in charge of the ship. While in charge of the ship Trip had to many a dangerous and delicate situation like when he put Enterprise between the Andorian and Vulcan fleets to prevent a war.
I never thought this was wise. Why would you have your hierarchy set up to where your chief engineer was in charge on the bridge a lot? Throw someone on the ship for the sole purpose of them being third in command
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
I think you can say T'Pol was second in command but T'Pol usually accompanied Captain Archer on the away missions leaving Trip in charge of the ship. While in charge of the ship Trip had to many a dangerous and delicate situation like when he put Enterprise between the Andorian and Vulcan fleets to prevent a war.
I never thought this was wise. Why would you have your hierarchy set up to where your chief engineer was in charge on the bridge a lot? Throw someone on the ship for the sole purpose of them being third in command
True though the most unwise was sending anyone down to planets much less command staff. People were constantly getting attacked, killed, poisoned, infected or captured. Send down a cheap replicated drone that is sterile as to not contaminate the planet ecosystem. Then when you have gotten all the scanning and investigation you need done send the drone into the sunnto destroy it and replicate yourself a new drone for the next planet. No contamination either way and safe for all crew. And since people are not going down you do not need many people to run your ship. Just three people with some robots and drones. Of course that would not be a very good show to watch.
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
I think you can say T'Pol was second in command but T'Pol usually accompanied Captain Archer on the away missions leaving Trip in charge of the ship. While in charge of the ship Trip had to many a dangerous and delicate situation like when he put Enterprise between the Andorian and Vulcan fleets to prevent a war.
I never thought this was wise. Why would you have your hierarchy set up to where your chief engineer was in charge on the bridge a lot? Throw someone on the ship for the sole purpose of them being third in command
True though the most unwise was sending anyone down to planets much less command staff. People were constantly getting attacked, killed, poisoned, infected or captured. Send down a cheap replicated drone that is sterile as to not contaminate the planet ecosystem. Then when you have gotten all the scanning and investigation you need done send the drone into the sunnto destroy it and replicate yourself a new drone for the next planet. No contamination either way and safe for all crew. And since people are not going down you do not need many people to run your ship. Just three people with some robots and drones. Of course that would not be a very good show to watch.
I thought making the chief engineer second in command was actually the most logical thing. First, I think that's why Scotty was in command so often. Second, same with Trip. Third, and more general, who better to protect the ship (and by extension, the crew) when things get tense?
Enterprise generally did a good job of having either T'Pol or Trip with Archer and leaving the other in charge. The times that they did not, I chalk up to good story and character development.
I think what Banjo is getting at is that in a battle if the ship gets damaged it would need to be repaired quickly but by having the chief engineer on the bridge you are sidelining your best repairman. Same kind of thing on Voyager when they made Tom Paris, their best pilot, also be a medic. The best pilot would be needed in ship battles to fly and the medic would be needed in sickbay during battles to help people injured in the ship battles. Tom Paris is desperately needed in two places during every ship battle and yet he can only be in one place at a time. Would have been much more efficient to have a low lvl science officer who runs scientific experiments be the medic since his/her scientific experiments could not be run during a battle and he/she would have much of the prerequisite scientific medical knowledge needed to become a medic.
Mr. Spock was explicitly referred to as first officer often, typically when introduced by Captain Kirk but sometimes by others. I've never been clear why they consolidated first officer and science officer, but I've long suspected it was a TV production thing. The captain had to be the star of the show, and the alien was going to be the show's signature novelty so he had to be second banana. If they'd had a dedicated XO, they would have had to include them, too, because being a novelty doesn't supersede someone else being the XO in a command structure.
As for DS9, Kira was established in "Emissary" as Sisko's first officer. Offhand, I can only think of one time when she and Worf were on the Defiant without Sisko, and that was "Paradise Lost". Worf was in command then, with Kira at the weapons station. So, yeah, it looks as though on the station, Worf answered to Kira and on the Defiant, Kira deferred to Worf.
Anyway, they're the two best first officers. Riker was an understudy, Chakotay quickly devolved into mere lackey, T'Pol was Daria in that one episode where she babysat those sheltered kids, and Disco is so loose it's easy to forget there even is a first officer.
Riker was an understudy, Chakotay quickly devolved into mere lackey, Disco is so loose it's easy to forget there even is a first officer.
Riker was far more than an understudy. He stopped the Borg invasion, saved Earth, and he rescued Picard. Riker was offered captaincy several times but turned it down each time because he was happy for the first time in his life from working on the Enterprise and the relationships that he had created.
Aboard the Discovery ship Saru is the first officer and he has done an excellent job.
He advised Captain Lorca, he rescued Captain Lorca when Lorca was captured, Saru lead and rallied the crew to escape the Mirror Universe and stop the corruption of the mycellial network. Later Saru was first officer under Captain Pike on the Discovery and continued to do well. Commander Burnham defers to and asks permission from Commander Saru on multiple occasions. Saru is definitively the first officer.
Riker was an understudy, Chakotay quickly devolved into mere lackey, Disco is so loose it's easy to forget there even is a first officer.
Riker was far more than an understudy. He stopped the Borg invasion, saved Earth, and he rescued Picard. Riker was offered captaincy several times but turned it down each time because he was happy for the first time in his life from working on the Enterprise and the relationships that he had created.
Aboard the Discovery ship Saru is the first officer and he has done an excellent job.
He advised Captain Lorca, he rescued Captain Lorca when Lorca was captured, Saru lead and rallied the crew to escape the Mirror Universe and stop the corruption of the mycellial network. Later Saru was first officer under Captain Pike on the Discovery and continued to do well. Commander Burnham defers to and asks permission from Commander Saru on multiple occasions. Saru is definitively the first officer.
I'm with the "Riker is an understudy" crowd. He didn't balance Picard the way Chakotay did Janeway. Happy or whatever, he mostly just went along with Picard. I can't thinknof enough instances where Riker advised Picard, Picard went against the advice, and Riker got to say "I told you so." Chakotay may not have used the words, but he could have. It just showed how Chakotay was more of a foil and just seemed more like a first officer to me.
Now Saru... I agree about 90%.
There was an episode where Pike asked Burnham who to take on an away missions with Saru standing right there. (That's a writing error.) Then there's the whole evolution thing. I think he needs to see how that will affect him before he's ready to step up as captain. Which is a bummer because I want him to be a captain badly. First, I want an alien captain. Second, I like Saru as a character and I think he would be ready, aside from the evolution.
Riker was an understudy, Chakotay quickly devolved into mere lackey, Disco is so loose it's easy to forget there even is a first officer.
Riker was far more than an understudy. He stopped the Borg invasion, saved Earth, and he rescued Picard. Riker was offered captaincy several times but turned it down each time because he was happy for the first time in his life from working on the Enterprise and the relationships that he had created.
Aboard the Discovery ship Saru is the first officer and he has done an excellent job.
He advised Captain Lorca, he rescued Captain Lorca when Lorca was captured, Saru lead and rallied the crew to escape the Mirror Universe and stop the corruption of the mycellial network. Later Saru was first officer under Captain Pike on the Discovery and continued to do well. Commander Burnham defers to and asks permission from Commander Saru on multiple occasions. Saru is definitively the first officer.
I'm with the "Riker is an understudy" crowd. He didn't balance Picard the way Chakotay did Janeway. Happy or whatever, he mostly just went along with Picard. I can't thinknof enough instances where Riker advised Picard, Picard went against the advice, and Riker got to say "I told you so." Chakotay may not have used the words, but he could have. It just showed how Chakotay was more of a foil and just seemed more like a first officer to me.
Now Saru... I agree about 90%.
There was an episode where Pike asked Burnham who to take on an away missions with Saru standing right there. (That's a writing error.) Then there's the whole evolution thing. I think he needs to see how that will affect him before he's ready to step up as captain. Which is a bummer because I want him to be a captain badly. First, I want an alien captain. Second, I like Saru as a character and I think he would be ready, aside from the evolution.
A captain and his/her first officer have to compliment each other. If both were brash and impulsive the ship would be put in too much danger. If both the captain and the first officer were calm and meditative then few actions would be taken and the ship would not adequately be performing its duties.
Janeway was brash and impulsive. Her first officer needed to be calm and meditative. To get her to slow down and consider other alternatives. Both Chakotay and Tuvok fit this role and were chosen by Janeway to do so. Captain Picard was the opposite of Captain Janeway. He was calm and meditative and as such he needed a first officer that was brash and impulsive. Riker was the first officer Picard needed. Riker often encouraged action, gave Captain Picard bold choices and was always willing to put himself in danger if needed for the mission. But Riker did not forget his responsibilities, he managed the crew dealing with any behavior issues that arose and advising when needed like when he advised Troi on what was needed to become a commander. Riker also lead the away team missions as was standard starfleet protocol and protected his captain by resisting when Picard tried to put himself in danger by trying to to go on away missions instead.
True though the most unwise was sending anyone down to planets much less command staff. People were constantly getting attacked, killed, poisoned, infected or captured. Send down a cheap replicated drone that is sterile as to not contaminate the planet ecosystem. Then when you have gotten all the scanning and investigation you need done send the drone into the sunnto destroy it and replicate yourself a new drone for the next planet. No contamination either way and safe for all crew. And since people are not going down you do not need many people to run your ship. Just three people with some robots and drones. Of course that would not be a very good show to watch.
[/quote]
I think you just described our current Mars exploration program. Might be the best way, but nobody gets really excited about it. Hence the need to send man back in space!
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
I think you can say T'Pol was second in command but T'Pol usually accompanied Captain Archer on the away missions leaving Trip in charge of the ship. While in charge of the ship Trip had to many a dangerous and delicate situation like when he put Enterprise between the Andorian and Vulcan fleets to prevent a war.
I never thought this was wise. Why would you have your hierarchy set up to where your chief engineer was in charge on the bridge a lot? Throw someone on the ship for the sole purpose of them being third in command
True though the most unwise was sending anyone down to planets much less command staff. People were constantly getting attacked, killed, poisoned, infected or captured. Send down a cheap replicated drone that is sterile as to not contaminate the planet ecosystem. Then when you have gotten all the scanning and investigation you need done send the drone into the sunnto destroy it and replicate yourself a new drone for the next planet. No contamination either way and safe for all crew. And since people are not going down you do not need many people to run your ship. Just three people with some robots and drones. Of course that would not be a very good show to watch.
That would be a wise course of action. Certainly would have prevented situations like season 4 when Hoshi and Trip actually died. Or the second episode when they were hallucinating. Worse decision ever by Archer though was trusting Harrad-Sar. The Orion’s tried to enslave your people. He said himself Archer is wanted in the Syndicate. Oh yeah. I totally trust him. I actually yell at the screen when I watch that episode
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
I think you can say T'Pol was second in command but T'Pol usually accompanied Captain Archer on the away missions leaving Trip in charge of the ship. While in charge of the ship Trip had to many a dangerous and delicate situation like when he put Enterprise between the Andorian and Vulcan fleets to prevent a war.
I never thought this was wise. Why would you have your hierarchy set up to where your chief engineer was in charge on the bridge a lot? Throw someone on the ship for the sole purpose of them being third in command
I’m in the camp of people who think it’s a good idea, at least on the smaller ships when you don’t have a wealth of additional officers to choose from (such as the Enterprise-D, where Data was the second officer). When the captain and XO are away, you need your next most senior, experienced person in the chair. I’d rather have my chief engineer, trusting that he’s trained his people to be self-sufficient while he’s away, rather than Ensign Blandface from the night watch making important decisions in a critical situation.
In many ways, captains other than Archer were incredibly well-stocked on experienced command officers beyond their designated XOs; Sisko had Worf (plus Dax’s centuries of experience to lean on), Picard had Data, Janeway had Tuvok, and even Discovery had Burnham. Reed was Archer’s most senior officer after Trip and T’Pol but (as much as I like him) Reed isn’t the same level of quality as the others. Even Kirk had multiple good command-level officers behind Spock, though maybe not quite as stellar as the likes of Tuvok or Worf.
I've thought it over some more and I want to walk back being so dismissive of Riker as an understudy. "Chain of Command" is the strongest argument in favor of what Riker did as first officer. The crew had a lot of concerns about serving under Jellico and they brought those concerns to Riker. That was the protocol, of course, to go to Riker and not Jellico himself. But it says something that they even saw a point in going to Riker. They trusted that he would listen to them, and speak on their behalf to the captain.
Anyone who has ever had a manager they hated but an assistant manager who smoothed things over enough for you to make it through the day can appreciate how valuable that kind of person can be. I think that function of the first officer is easy to overlook while focusing on things like advising the captain and overseeing the execution of their orders.
IMO Scotty actually made the best first officer (technically acting first officer) there were several instances where he was constrained by his captains orders yet he used shrewdness and initiative enough to bend them enough not to countermand those orders. We’ll forget the brawling with Klingons bit 😂
The episode Galileo seven however was a good episode on the falibilities of Spock as first officer.
But really any first officer with have learning curves and falibilities that’s why they are first officers or next in command. But that is also not to say Starfleet Captains have the infallibility of a pope either.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
Spock was First Officer of the Entrerprise, and Scotty was Second Officer, IIRC.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Chakotay is the ultimate second in command. He does everything he can to carry out the orders of his captain while trying to temper her/his worst impulses. He did it with Janeway and then when taken prisoner by Annorax he did it with him.
You got me thinking about first officers...
Riker was too much of a womanizer and effectively just a captain-in-training under Picard. But good at carrying out orders, to be fair.
There's Chakotay, who you described nicely.
Number One has a special place in my heart for being first, though not well developed. She did the job nicely from what I saw. She laid out options and then carried out orders, sometimes (correctly) intuiting and carrying out orders before they were officially given.
Did anyone else have a first officer? Spock was next in command, but a science officer. Neither Dax not Worf had the title of first officer. Same with T'Pol and Trip.
And now I'm annoyed. It seemed like first officer was a position that came about after Kirk's time. Except that Burnham and Saru were both first officers. And I don't want to dig into those two for two reasons:
1) It rehashes old qualms with Discovery, but more importantly...
2) There will be spoilers best discussed in other threads.
It was a long, drawn-out way of saying it, but basically, I think Chakotay was a good first officer - better than Riker, but may and may not be as good as Number One.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
She took Command when Archer was injured in "Broken Bow". Trip tried to overrule her, and lost. And, she ably demonstrated that she may not believe in Starfleet, but she already believed that early in Archer......
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Resolute Chakotay is not from Year of Hell, I hope, because we already have Temporal Prisoner Chakotay as his only other 5*, from the same episode. Of course, we have two 5* Annoraxen, so why not...
Resolute Chakotay is not from Year of Hell, I hope, because we already have Temporal Prisoner Chakotay as his only other 5*, from the same episode. Of course, we have two 5* Annoraxen, so why not...
According to the Wiki, Temporal Prisoner Chakotay is from s7e11 Shattered. Also, he never looks like that in Year of Hell.
Resolute Chakotay is not from Year of Hell, I hope, because we already have Temporal Prisoner Chakotay as his only other 5*, from the same episode. Of course, we have two 5* Annoraxen, so why not...
Temporal Prisoner Chakotay is from Shattered
He is holding a Kazon rifle.
“What's a knockout like you doing in a computer-generated gin joint like this?”
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
This is a terrific thread about who the best first officers are...
...but did Voyager actually have one before Chakotay showed up when the crews merged? It wouldn't have been Tuvok since he was undercover...was there one that we never saw on the show, but in theory could in this game?
This is a terrific thread about who the best first officers are...
...but did Voyager actually have one before Chakotay showed up when the crews merged? It wouldn't have been Tuvok since he was undercover...was there one that we never saw on the show, but in theory could in this game?
Yes. He was killed along with Voyagers original CMO, Chief Engineer and Helmsman during the trip to the Delta quadrant.
Comments
I think she was next in command of the station, but she wasn't Starfleet, so I didn't count her.
The Deep Space Nine tv show is not about the Federation or Starfleet, it is about the Bajoran people and their exploration of space. Deep Space Nine is a Bajoran station run by Bajoran Emissary Sisko and Bajoran liason officer Kira with security provided by the Bajoran government. The Federation is a tenant that manages the station and the other tenants in lieu of rent. The Federation interests and space exploration is lead by Commander Sisko. But Sisko was Bajoran long before he joined the Federation. His conception was overseen by a Bajoran god Prophet. He was later named Bajoran spiritual leader, Emissary, by the Prophets. As such, all the accomplishments and deeds of Sisko and the people under his command are Bajoran accomplishments and deeds.
Although it wasn’t really explicitly stated on screen, I think it was fairly obvious that Spock was considered to be Kirk’s first officer as well as chief science officer. For Archer’s Enterprise, it’s a little less clear - for seasons 3 and 4 I think T’Pol was the obvious default choice but, given attitudes towards Vulcans, in seasons 1 and 2 it may well have been Trip on paper but with T’Pol naturally taking over as the more experienced officer (as well as Trip being more necessary to the functioning of the engine room).
For DS9 I think it was a split job, particularly after the Defiant was delivered. Kira was the unquestioned second-in-command of Deep Space Nine when Sisko was elsewhere, on account of her being the senior Bajoran and arguably most-seasoned command officer serving aboard the station. I would argue Worf was the #2 person on board the Defiant given his years of experience aboard starships.
Trip may have fought T’Pol on it once or twice but she always stood him down as second in command
I think you can say T'Pol was second in command but T'Pol usually accompanied Captain Archer on the away missions leaving Trip in charge of the ship. While in charge of the ship Trip had to many a dangerous and delicate situation like when he put Enterprise between the Andorian and Vulcan fleets to prevent a war.
I never thought this was wise. Why would you have your hierarchy set up to where your chief engineer was in charge on the bridge a lot? Throw someone on the ship for the sole purpose of them being third in command
I thought making the chief engineer second in command was actually the most logical thing. First, I think that's why Scotty was in command so often. Second, same with Trip. Third, and more general, who better to protect the ship (and by extension, the crew) when things get tense?
Enterprise generally did a good job of having either T'Pol or Trip with Archer and leaving the other in charge. The times that they did not, I chalk up to good story and character development.
As for DS9, Kira was established in "Emissary" as Sisko's first officer. Offhand, I can only think of one time when she and Worf were on the Defiant without Sisko, and that was "Paradise Lost". Worf was in command then, with Kira at the weapons station. So, yeah, it looks as though on the station, Worf answered to Kira and on the Defiant, Kira deferred to Worf.
Anyway, they're the two best first officers. Riker was an understudy, Chakotay quickly devolved into mere lackey, T'Pol was Daria in that one episode where she babysat those sheltered kids, and Disco is so loose it's easy to forget there even is a first officer.
Aboard the Discovery ship Saru is the first officer and he has done an excellent job.
I'm with the "Riker is an understudy" crowd. He didn't balance Picard the way Chakotay did Janeway. Happy or whatever, he mostly just went along with Picard. I can't thinknof enough instances where Riker advised Picard, Picard went against the advice, and Riker got to say "I told you so." Chakotay may not have used the words, but he could have. It just showed how Chakotay was more of a foil and just seemed more like a first officer to me.
Now Saru... I agree about 90%.
A captain and his/her first officer have to compliment each other. If both were brash and impulsive the ship would be put in too much danger. If both the captain and the first officer were calm and meditative then few actions would be taken and the ship would not adequately be performing its duties.
Janeway was brash and impulsive. Her first officer needed to be calm and meditative. To get her to slow down and consider other alternatives. Both Chakotay and Tuvok fit this role and were chosen by Janeway to do so. Captain Picard was the opposite of Captain Janeway. He was calm and meditative and as such he needed a first officer that was brash and impulsive. Riker was the first officer Picard needed. Riker often encouraged action, gave Captain Picard bold choices and was always willing to put himself in danger if needed for the mission. But Riker did not forget his responsibilities, he managed the crew dealing with any behavior issues that arose and advising when needed like when he advised Troi on what was needed to become a commander. Riker also lead the away team missions as was standard starfleet protocol and protected his captain by resisting when Picard tried to put himself in danger by trying to to go on away missions instead.
“It is inappropriate for you to lead the away team, we are in a state of war, and your place is on the bridge “.
I think only she could have done that.
[/quote]
I think you just described our current Mars exploration program. Might be the best way, but nobody gets really excited about it. Hence the need to send man back in space!
That would be a wise course of action. Certainly would have prevented situations like season 4 when Hoshi and Trip actually died. Or the second episode when they were hallucinating. Worse decision ever by Archer though was trusting Harrad-Sar. The Orion’s tried to enslave your people. He said himself Archer is wanted in the Syndicate. Oh yeah. I totally trust him. I actually yell at the screen when I watch that episode
He may have been second in command, but he was kinda like "Captain Wannabe" throughout the series. And afraid of "the Big Chair" at the same time.
I’m in the camp of people who think it’s a good idea, at least on the smaller ships when you don’t have a wealth of additional officers to choose from (such as the Enterprise-D, where Data was the second officer). When the captain and XO are away, you need your next most senior, experienced person in the chair. I’d rather have my chief engineer, trusting that he’s trained his people to be self-sufficient while he’s away, rather than Ensign Blandface from the night watch making important decisions in a critical situation.
In many ways, captains other than Archer were incredibly well-stocked on experienced command officers beyond their designated XOs; Sisko had Worf (plus Dax’s centuries of experience to lean on), Picard had Data, Janeway had Tuvok, and even Discovery had Burnham. Reed was Archer’s most senior officer after Trip and T’Pol but (as much as I like him) Reed isn’t the same level of quality as the others. Even Kirk had multiple good command-level officers behind Spock, though maybe not quite as stellar as the likes of Tuvok or Worf.
Anyone who has ever had a manager they hated but an assistant manager who smoothed things over enough for you to make it through the day can appreciate how valuable that kind of person can be. I think that function of the first officer is easy to overlook while focusing on things like advising the captain and overseeing the execution of their orders.
The episode Galileo seven however was a good episode on the falibilities of Spock as first officer.
But really any first officer with have learning curves and falibilities that’s why they are first officers or next in command. But that is also not to say Starfleet Captains have the infallibility of a pope either.
Spock was First Officer of the Entrerprise, and Scotty was Second Officer, IIRC.
She took Command when Archer was injured in "Broken Bow". Trip tried to overrule her, and lost. And, she ably demonstrated that she may not believe in Starfleet, but she already believed that early in Archer......
If it were not for the fact that this is the final part of a mega it would be the first time in a good while where I dont have a single event crew!
As always, Thanks to @Shan for the post
According to the Wiki, Temporal Prisoner Chakotay is from s7e11 Shattered. Also, he never looks like that in Year of Hell.
Temporal Prisoner Chakotay is from Shattered
He is holding a Kazon rifle.
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
...but did Voyager actually have one before Chakotay showed up when the crews merged? It wouldn't have been Tuvok since he was undercover...was there one that we never saw on the show, but in theory could in this game?
Yes. He was killed along with Voyagers original CMO, Chief Engineer and Helmsman during the trip to the Delta quadrant.