Because on the show she’s always crying like a sensitive delicate little flower
Please please please don't take this into that whole "Mary Sue" territory! I just mean I think that's her default "act like you're making a really tough choice" face.
It's tough to not go into Mary Sue territory when you're talking about Burnham because love or hate her she's the literal definition of a Mary Sue
Any Simpsons fans out there might remember when Homer was trying to improve people's liking of Poochie he said "When Poochie's not around, everyone should be saying 'WHERE'S POOCHIE!?'"
DSC heard Homer loud and proud and made that a true thing with Burnham
I have said it before and will say it again, “Mary Sue” is a sexist term in which male main characters can solve problems with no criticism but female main characters can not. Kirk solved almost every problem, got the alien women to fall in love with him, and use logic to destroy robots and computers. Picard was always right putting many superiors in their place. Sisko was a demigod. Archer founded the Federation single-handedly. Where is the criticism for Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer? Why have they never been called Mary Sue or a male equivalent which is never used?
1) TOS was campy wish-fulfillment set in space. Kirk always solved everything and got the girl because that was literally the genre of the show. It personally isn’t my favorite (which is personally why I find TOS okay-ish instead of outstanding) but it didn’t pretend to be something it wasn’t.
2) In TNG, Picard isn’t just “some dude” or even “some captain”. He’s one of the most experienced captains in the fleet, and probably the most well-respected one, because he’s the captain of the flagship. Someone who has been doing the job as long as he has, and doing it well as long as he has, is going to know a lot of things. He’s also going to get some leeway from the admirals because his job is a literal stepping stone to the admiralty. Someone who gets the flagship is at least going to be a two star, if not more. And Picard didn’t go around telling his superiors off. He might’ve strongly disagreed with them, but it was almost always in a relatively civilized way. And push come to shove, he usually followed his orders (or found ways to creatively disobey them in ways he couldn’t get in too much trouble for.)
3). Sisko *was* Marty Stu-ish, but the literal premise of the show was that he was the Enissary that the Bajoran religion foretold. In addition, the show also almost immediately showed us that the Bajoran Prophets were real beings with extraordinary god-like powers. I think that whole conceit was not the direction I would have preferred for the show, but you could explain away a lot of the Marty Stu/deus ex machina stuff by the fact Sisko was chosen by literal gods as the man for the job and therefore his decisions almost always inexplicably working made sense to the extent you accepted that premise.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
If Michael Burnham was a man instead of a woman would people complain? And not just occasionally complain but incessantly complain every time her character is mentioned? I think not.
I would. I think I compared her to Kevin Sorbo's character in Andromeda earlier - a man. Spock is deeply flawed and often denied by Kirk and mocked by McCoy. Sisko is a good officer but when he needs science stuff done, he's asking for help and advice. Picard often gets outplayed by the aliens of the week and knows when to rely on others to find a solution to the issue at hand. Janeway was no saint and sometimes harsh (Tuvix) or authoritarian (denying the doctor sentient life rights). I'm still waiting on Burnham to say "I don't know", "what's your opinion?" or "I need help".
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
This may not be common knowledge, so here's a link to some information about Florence Nightingale. She was a bright lady who used some science to improve medical practices, then led the way on their implementation in a male-dominated profession. Kind of like being good at science, then getting stranded in the Delta Quadrant and working against many adversaries to get your crew home. When I think of Janeway, I think more Florence Nightingale than Mary Sue.
If Michael Burnham was a man instead of a woman would people complain? And not just occasionally complain but incessantly complain every time her character is mentioned? I think not.
I would. I think I compared her to Kevin Sorbo's character in Andromeda earlier - a man. Spock is deeply flawed and often denied by Kirk and mocked by McCoy. Sisko is a good officer but when he needs science stuff done, he's asking for help and advice. Picard often gets outplayed by the aliens of the week and knows when to rely on others to find a solution to the issue at hand. Janeway was no saint and sometimes harsh (Tuvix) or authoritarian (denying the doctor sentient life rights). I'm still waiting on Burnham to say "I don't know", "what's your opinion?" or "I need help".
And not only that, maybe we can also say that our standards in storytelling are a lot different than they were in the 60s,70s,80s, and 90s. People expect more nuanced and realistic characters.
So the question maybe shouldn’t be, “Well, is Burnham acting any differently than Kirk?” but, “Is she a good character?”
I acknowledge there has been sexism and there is still sexism now. But that doesn’t mean to balance that out, we need a one-note space cowboy that happens to be female instead of male because half a century ago we had Captain Kirk. We should just focus on making better characters and having better stories to tell.
Because on the show she’s always crying like a sensitive delicate little flower
Please please please don't take this into that whole "Mary Sue" territory! I just mean I think that's her default "act like you're making a really tough choice" face.
It's tough to not go into Mary Sue territory when you're talking about Burnham because love or hate her she's the literal definition of a Mary Sue
Any Simpsons fans out there might remember when Homer was trying to improve people's liking of Poochie he said "When Poochie's not around, everyone should be saying 'WHERE'S POOCHIE!?'"
DSC heard Homer loud and proud and made that a true thing with Burnham
I have said it before and will say it again, “Mary Sue” is a sexist term in which male main characters can solve problems with no criticism but female main characters can not. Kirk solved almost every problem, got the alien women to fall in love with him, and use logic to destroy robots and computers. Picard was always right putting many superiors in their place. Sisko was a demigod. Archer founded the Federation single-handedly. Where is the criticism for Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer? Why have they never been called Mary Sue or a male equivalent which is never used?
1) TOS was campy wish-fulfillment set in space. Kirk always solved everything and got the girl because that was literally the genre of the show. It personally isn’t my favorite (which is personally why I find TOS okay-ish instead of outstanding) but it didn’t pretend to be something it wasn’t.
2) In TNG, Picard isn’t just “some dude” or even “some captain”. He’s one of the most experienced captains in the fleet, and probably the most well-respected one, because he’s the captain of the flagship. Someone who has been doing the job as long as he has, and doing it well as long as he has, is going to know a lot of things. He’s also going to get some leeway from the admirals because his job is a literal stepping stone to the admiralty. Someone who gets the flagship is at least going to be a two star, if not more. And Picard didn’t go around telling his superiors off. He might’ve strongly disagreed with them, but it was almost always in a relatively civilized way. And push come to shove, he usually followed his orders (or found ways to creatively disobey them in ways he couldn’t get in too much trouble for.)
3). Sisko *was* Marty Stu-ish, but the literal premise of the show was that he was the Enissary that the Bajoran religion foretold. In addition, the show also almost immediately showed us that the Bajoran Prophets were real beings with extraordinary god-like powers. I think that whole conceit was not the direction I would have preferred for the show, but you could explain away a lot of the Marty Stu/deus ex machina stuff by the fact Sisko was chosen by literal gods as the man for the job and therefore his decisions almost always inexplicably working made sense to the extent you accepted that premise.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
...and she made them 37 photon torpedoes last 7 years...
Founding ADM - PoF family of fleets (POF, POF2 & POF3) - Dear TP: Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.
Lt. Commander Icheb (New) - this crew will be featured event crew in the event starting on 02/20.
Fully Fused Fully Equipped Level 100 Skills: ENG 980 (141-310), SEC 471 (101-151), SCI 1272 (207-433)
Traits: Civilian, Brunali, Borg, Astrophysicist, Prodigy, Innovator, Federation
Lt. Commander Icheb looks good. Good traits and a voyage score of 3394. Prodigy, Innovator, Borg, and Astrophysicist comes up a lot in voyages in eng and sci slots for me. I hope next week though that we can earn another Picard show legendary and a Picard super rare cause this mega be too sparse.
Lt. Commander Icheb (New) - this crew will be featured event crew in the event starting on 02/20.
Fully Fused Fully Equipped Level 100 Skills: ENG 980 (141-310), SEC 471 (101-151), SCI 1272 (207-433)
Traits: Civilian, Brunali, Borg, Astrophysicist, Prodigy, Innovator, Federation
Lt. Commander Icheb looks good. Good traits and a voyage score of 3394. Prodigy, Innovator, Borg, and Astrophysicist comes up a lot in voyages in eng and sci slots for me. I hope next week though that we can earn another Picard show legendary and a Picard super rare cause this mega be too sparse.
I think DB's statement was that crew from existing shows are here to support Picard. I bet we get an actual Picard mega event closer to June.
Lt. Commander Icheb (New) - this crew will be featured event crew in the event starting on 02/20.
Fully Fused Fully Equipped Level 100 Skills: ENG 980 (141-310), SEC 471 (101-151), SCI 1272 (207-433)
Traits: Civilian, Brunali, Borg, Astrophysicist, Prodigy, Innovator, Federation
Lt. Commander Icheb looks good. Good traits and a voyage score of 3394. Prodigy, Innovator, Borg, and Astrophysicist comes up a lot in voyages in eng and sci slots for me. I hope next week though that we can earn another Picard show legendary and a Picard super rare cause this mega be too sparse.
I think DB's statement was that crew from existing shows are here to support Picard. I bet we get an actual Picard mega event closer to June.
Indeed. March and August should be booked already (Disco s3 and the traditional player's choice mega respectively) so that leaves June for a Picard mega.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
This may not be common knowledge, so here's a link to some information about Florence Nightingale. She was a bright lady who used some science to improve medical practices, then led the way on their implementation in a male-dominated profession. Kind of like being good at science, then getting stranded in the Delta Quadrant and working against many adversaries to get your crew home. When I think of Janeway, I think more Florence Nightingale than Mary Sue.
I don’t think those comparisons are directly analogous.
1. Florence Nightingale was heavily disliked. Sure, she became a revered figure later, to people who didn’t know her, but on a personal level, a lot of people disliked her because she was dogmatic, inflexible, and essentially convinced of her own righteousness. Her outcomes were good, but she rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
This is pretty typical, honestly, of these sorts of innovative figures, hardly an aberration.
But Janeway? She easily takes the Maquis and makes one big happy family. The only people who truly dislike her are “bad”: the Cardassian spy and the emotionally disturbed Betazoid. Completely unrealistic.
2. Florence Nightingale didn’t pioneer the research into nursing and best practices so much as amalgamate existing knowledge, and be placed into a position where she could enforce those practices.
Janeway, though, just pulls stuff out of her [posterior]. What was Starfleet thinking, that they ignored this scientific and tactical genius from the ranks of Ensign to Commander? She could have stopped the Borg at Wolf 359 singlehandedly!
3. Nightingale achieved what she did through research, hard work and a refusal to give up.
Janeway made dumb decisions (when she wasn’t re-writing the laws of physics) that she managed to get out of time and again because her enemies cackled and searched for sharks with laser beams.
Lt. Commander Icheb (New) - this crew will be featured event crew in the event starting on 02/20.
Fully Fused Fully Equipped Level 100 Skills: ENG 980 (141-310), SEC 471 (101-151), SCI 1272 (207-433)
Traits: Civilian, Brunali, Borg, Astrophysicist, Prodigy, Innovator, Federation
Lt. Commander Icheb looks good. Good traits and a voyage score of 3394. Prodigy, Innovator, Borg, and Astrophysicist comes up a lot in voyages in eng and sci slots for me. I hope next week though that we can earn another Picard show legendary and a Picard super rare cause this mega be too sparse.
I think DB's statement was that crew from existing shows are here to support Picard. I bet we get an actual Picard mega event closer to June.
Indeed. March and August should be booked already (Disco s3 and the traditional player's choice mega respectively) so that leaves June for a Picard mega.
Lt. Commander Icheb (New) - this crew will be featured event crew in the event starting on 02/20.
Fully Fused Fully Equipped Level 100 Skills: ENG 980 (141-310), SEC 471 (101-151), SCI 1272 (207-433)
Traits: Civilian, Brunali, Borg, Astrophysicist, Prodigy, Innovator, Federation
Lt. Commander Icheb looks good. Good traits and a voyage score of 3394. Prodigy, Innovator, Borg, and Astrophysicist comes up a lot in voyages in eng and sci slots for me. I hope next week though that we can earn another Picard show legendary and a Picard super rare cause this mega be too sparse.
I think DB's statement was that crew from existing shows are here to support Picard. I bet we get an actual Picard mega event closer to June.
Indeed. March and August should be booked already (Disco s3 and the traditional player's choice mega respectively) so that leaves June for a Picard mega.
Is the players choice traditional?
No. And anyone who thinks, "they did it last year so they'll do it again at the same time and the same way" should look at Christmas and Convergence Day.
So I suspect this week will be relatively light - with those stats, Icheb is nothing to write home about. #62 Voyager and barely ekes into the Top 10 for SCI base. Unless you really need a SCI/ENG/SEC Voyager...seems like an easy pass.
How does that compare to Protomorphosis Barclay? I think a lot of us have him now.
Because on the show she’s always crying like a sensitive delicate little flower
Please please please don't take this into that whole "Mary Sue" territory! I just mean I think that's her default "act like you're making a really tough choice" face.
It's tough to not go into Mary Sue territory when you're talking about Burnham because love or hate her she's the literal definition of a Mary Sue
Any Simpsons fans out there might remember when Homer was trying to improve people's liking of Poochie he said "When Poochie's not around, everyone should be saying 'WHERE'S POOCHIE!?'"
DSC heard Homer loud and proud and made that a true thing with Burnham
I have said it before and will say it again, “Mary Sue” is a sexist term in which male main characters can solve problems with no criticism but female main characters can not. Kirk solved almost every problem, got the alien women to fall in love with him, and use logic to destroy robots and computers. Picard was always right putting many superiors in their place. Sisko was a demigod. Archer founded the Federation single-handedly. Where is the criticism for Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer? Why have they never been called Mary Sue or a male equivalent which is never used?
1) TOS was campy wish-fulfillment set in space. Kirk always solved everything and got the girl because that was literally the genre of the show. It personally isn’t my favorite (which is personally why I find TOS okay-ish instead of outstanding) but it didn’t pretend to be something it wasn’t.
2) In TNG, Picard isn’t just “some dude” or even “some captain”. He’s one of the most experienced captains in the fleet, and probably the most well-respected one, because he’s the captain of the flagship. Someone who has been doing the job as long as he has, and doing it well as long as he has, is going to know a lot of things. He’s also going to get some leeway from the admirals because his job is a literal stepping stone to the admiralty. Someone who gets the flagship is at least going to be a two star, if not more. And Picard didn’t go around telling his superiors off. He might’ve strongly disagreed with them, but it was almost always in a relatively civilized way. And push come to shove, he usually followed his orders (or found ways to creatively disobey them in ways he couldn’t get in too much trouble for.)
3). Sisko *was* Marty Stu-ish, but the literal premise of the show was that he was the Enissary that the Bajoran religion foretold. In addition, the show also almost immediately showed us that the Bajoran Prophets were real beings with extraordinary god-like powers. I think that whole conceit was not the direction I would have preferred for the show, but you could explain away a lot of the Marty Stu/deus ex machina stuff by the fact Sisko was chosen by literal gods as the man for the job and therefore his decisions almost always inexplicably working made sense to the extent you accepted that premise.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
You’re not done yet. You still have one more “Enterprise” captain to critique
Because on the show she’s always crying like a sensitive delicate little flower
Please please please don't take this into that whole "Mary Sue" territory! I just mean I think that's her default "act like you're making a really tough choice" face.
It's tough to not go into Mary Sue territory when you're talking about Burnham because love or hate her she's the literal definition of a Mary Sue
Any Simpsons fans out there might remember when Homer was trying to improve people's liking of Poochie he said "When Poochie's not around, everyone should be saying 'WHERE'S POOCHIE!?'"
DSC heard Homer loud and proud and made that a true thing with Burnham
I have said it before and will say it again, “Mary Sue” is a sexist term in which male main characters can solve problems with no criticism but female main characters can not. Kirk solved almost every problem, got the alien women to fall in love with him, and use logic to destroy robots and computers. Picard was always right putting many superiors in their place. Sisko was a demigod. Archer founded the Federation single-handedly. Where is the criticism for Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer? Why have they never been called Mary Sue or a male equivalent which is never used?
1) TOS was campy wish-fulfillment set in space. Kirk always solved everything and got the girl because that was literally the genre of the show. It personally isn’t my favorite (which is personally why I find TOS okay-ish instead of outstanding) but it didn’t pretend to be something it wasn’t.
2) In TNG, Picard isn’t just “some dude” or even “some captain”. He’s one of the most experienced captains in the fleet, and probably the most well-respected one, because he’s the captain of the flagship. Someone who has been doing the job as long as he has, and doing it well as long as he has, is going to know a lot of things. He’s also going to get some leeway from the admirals because his job is a literal stepping stone to the admiralty. Someone who gets the flagship is at least going to be a two star, if not more. And Picard didn’t go around telling his superiors off. He might’ve strongly disagreed with them, but it was almost always in a relatively civilized way. And push come to shove, he usually followed his orders (or found ways to creatively disobey them in ways he couldn’t get in too much trouble for.)
3). Sisko *was* Marty Stu-ish, but the literal premise of the show was that he was the Enissary that the Bajoran religion foretold. In addition, the show also almost immediately showed us that the Bajoran Prophets were real beings with extraordinary god-like powers. I think that whole conceit was not the direction I would have preferred for the show, but you could explain away a lot of the Marty Stu/deus ex machina stuff by the fact Sisko was chosen by literal gods as the man for the job and therefore his decisions almost always inexplicably working made sense to the extent you accepted that premise.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
You’re not done yet. You still have one more “Enterprise” captain to critique
WOW! Sometimes these posts get waaaaaaaaaay out there in left field. Way out there by the fence ... and the corn patch ... and strange unsupervised children. (and even aliens maybe!)
Remember: it's just a game, not a matter of life and death!
So I suspect this week will be relatively light - with those stats, Icheb is nothing to write home about. #62 Voyager and barely ekes into the Top 10 for SCI base. Unless you really need a SCI/ENG/SEC Voyager...seems like an easy pass.
How does that compare to Protomorphosis Barclay? I think a lot of us have him now.
Icheb is about 40-50 points up on both Barclay and Survivalist Kirk, the second we all got as a freebie.
- So in my books, that's about equal for voyages ... but I already have Barclay at 5/5 and Kirk at 2/5.
- Both Kirk and Barclay have really good traits that come up a lot for voyages ... Barclay has Innovator and Astroph. ... yeah Borg is new (but I slot in 5/5 Assimilated La Forge then).
- Kirk is better for events opportunities in general and is better in Gauntlet by a mile, I do run into him at times.
- I like Barclay's dual 1000+ bases, but for shuttle seats, it all depends really.
- We're all getting at least 4/5 of an SCI #1 base in Picard ... that's 3 stars up on Icheb for the large majority of players.
Overall I rate him okay, and specifically for my crew he'd be a bit surplus, I'd rather sink 3 citations into Kirk to immortalise him, but he'd provide width.
I'm still going to go for top 1500 ... because I'll be pulling packs at the end of the mega and I'd be bummed to get him if I didn't already have him.
So I suspect this week will be relatively light - with those stats, Icheb is nothing to write home about. #62 Voyager and barely ekes into the Top 10 for SCI base. Unless you really need a SCI/ENG/SEC Voyager...seems like an easy pass.
How does that compare to Protomorphosis Barclay? I think a lot of us have him now.
Icheb is about 40-50 points up on both Barclay and Survivalist Kirk, the second we all got as a freebie.
- So in my books, that's about equal for voyages ... but I already have Barclay at 5/5 and Kirk at 2/5.
- Both Kirk and Barclay have really good traits that come up a lot for voyages ... Barclay has Innovator and Astroph. ... yeah Borg is new (but I slot in 5/5 Assimilated La Forge then).
- Kirk is better for events opportunities in general and is better in Gauntlet by a mile, I do run into him at times.
- I like Barclay's dual 1000+ bases, but for shuttle seats, it all depends really.
- We're all getting at least 4/5 of an SCI #1 base in Picard ... that's 3 stars up on Icheb for the large majority of players.
Overall I rate him okay, and specifically for my crew he'd be a bit surplus, I'd rather sink 3 citations into Kirk to immortalise him, but he'd provide width.
I'm still going to go for top 1500 ... because I'll be pulling packs at the end of the mega and I'd be bummed to get him if I didn't already have him.
My crew is similarly situated. That's all great advice. Thanks.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
This may not be common knowledge, so here's a link to some information about Florence Nightingale. She was a bright lady who used some science to improve medical practices, then led the way on their implementation in a male-dominated profession. Kind of like being good at science, then getting stranded in the Delta Quadrant and working against many adversaries to get your crew home. When I think of Janeway, I think more Florence Nightingale than Mary Sue.
I don’t think those comparisons are directly analogous.
1. Florence Nightingale was heavily disliked. Sure, she became a revered figure later, to people who didn’t know her, but on a personal level, a lot of people disliked her because she was dogmatic, inflexible, and essentially convinced of her own righteousness. Her outcomes were good, but she rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
This is pretty typical, honestly, of these sorts of innovative figures, hardly an aberration.
But Janeway? She easily takes the Maquis and makes one big happy family. The only people who truly dislike her are “bad”: the Cardassian spy and the emotionally disturbed Betazoid. Completely unrealistic.
2. Florence Nightingale didn’t pioneer the research into nursing and best practices so much as amalgamate existing knowledge, and be placed into a position where she could enforce those practices.
Janeway, though, just pulls stuff out of her [posterior]. What was Starfleet thinking, that they ignored this scientific and tactical genius from the ranks of Ensign to Commander? She could have stopped the Borg at Wolf 359 singlehandedly!
3. Nightingale achieved what she did through research, hard work and a refusal to give up.
Janeway made dumb decisions (when she wasn’t re-writing the laws of physics) that she managed to get out of time and again because her enemies cackled and searched for sharks with laser beams.
I mean, I could go on and on.
With statements like "when she wasn't re-writing the laws of physics" when talking about a science fiction show, I suggest you not "go on." You will make yourself look silly. I could address your arguments point-by-point, but that would also be silly. You clearly did not like the show and I won't be convincing you otherwise.
But I will defend my girl, Flo in your point #2. "Florence Nightingale didn’t pioneer the research into nursing and best practices so much as amalgamate existing knowledge..." Was it a scientist or inventor who said something about achieving greatness by standing on the shoulders of Giants? So... Thanks for explaining innovation, I guess?
My biggest issue is that bonus crew barely matter for this mega.
Skirmish event doesn't matter past a single crew.
Hybrid matters a little in the first half, but will be dominated by galaxy half which only really need the featured crew and maybe one or two other.
Full galaxy is the same issue.
The final week of full faction is the only event where all the bonus crew will be used. But you're competing for a flashback or replay crew not a mega crew.
So unless I really like/need the 5* from after the mega, there was no need to pull most of my crew out of the vault.
This is a good point. A key part of the fun of a mega-event is having lots of toys in the sandbox. I thawed my three Odos and Sevenses (Sevenii? Twenty One?) for this week, in hopes of clearing thresholds during phase 1. I doubt they'
Gotta be honest, I'm not really feeling the front half of this mega. And I ain't got a single thing to say about Manu Intiraymi and his remarks that won't get me suspended and/or banned from the forum.
I agree. This mega is kinda meh. I’m holding on to the Picard from the first event but am not overly excited about keeping him. May as well though right? He’s a free legendary and so far is the only card from the new show
Oh, I'm keeping Picard and Number One and I'm happy to have 'em. Also happy I got a chance to pick up Safecracker Nog. That's pretty much it so far, though.
I liked T'Pol. If I can pick up a couple copies from recaps, I might finish her up. Good voyage stats and I won a gauntlet with her the other day. Snagged my fourth Armus, thanks to her. One thing I'll admit though...
As much as I liked starting the mega event with a skirmish, the expedition and skirmish the preceding two weeks had me in a state of burn-out. I'm looking forward to this hybrid to break things up.
My biggest issue is that bonus crew barely matter for this mega.
Skirmish event doesn't matter past a single crew.
Hybrid matters a little in the first half, but will be dominated by galaxy half which only really need the featured crew and maybe one or two other.
Full galaxy is the same issue.
The final week of full faction is the only event where all the bonus crew will be used. But you're competing for a flashback or replay crew not a mega crew.
So unless I really like/need the 5* from after the mega, there was no need to pull most of my crew out of the vault.
Excellent points, @AviTrek. I didn't consciously put together the scheduling effect on bonus crew, but this might just be the real issue. One of the key appeals of a mega-event is getting to play with so many of my toys in the sandbox and there isn't much call for doing that. Astrophysicist is a perfectly fine bonus trait, but not if having a bonus trait is moot.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
This may not be common knowledge, so here's a link to some information about Florence Nightingale. She was a bright lady who used some science to improve medical practices, then led the way on their implementation in a male-dominated profession. Kind of like being good at science, then getting stranded in the Delta Quadrant and working against many adversaries to get your crew home. When I think of Janeway, I think more Florence Nightingale than Mary Sue.
I don’t think those comparisons are directly analogous.
1. Florence Nightingale was heavily disliked. Sure, she became a revered figure later, to people who didn’t know her, but on a personal level, a lot of people disliked her because she was dogmatic, inflexible, and essentially convinced of her own righteousness. Her outcomes were good, but she rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
This is pretty typical, honestly, of these sorts of innovative figures, hardly an aberration.
But Janeway? She easily takes the Maquis and makes one big happy family. The only people who truly dislike her are “bad”: the Cardassian spy and the emotionally disturbed Betazoid. Completely unrealistic.
2. Florence Nightingale didn’t pioneer the research into nursing and best practices so much as amalgamate existing knowledge, and be placed into a position where she could enforce those practices.
Janeway, though, just pulls stuff out of her [posterior]. What was Starfleet thinking, that they ignored this scientific and tactical genius from the ranks of Ensign to Commander? She could have stopped the Borg at Wolf 359 singlehandedly!
3. Nightingale achieved what she did through research, hard work and a refusal to give up.
Janeway made dumb decisions (when she wasn’t re-writing the laws of physics) that she managed to get out of time and again because her enemies cackled and searched for sharks with laser beams.
I mean, I could go on and on.
With statements like "when she wasn't re-writing the laws of physics" when talking about a science fiction show, I suggest you not "go on." You will make yourself look silly. I could address your arguments point-by-point, but that would also be silly. You clearly did not like the show and I won't be convincing you otherwise.
But I will defend my girl, Flo in your point #2. "Florence Nightingale didn’t pioneer the research into nursing and best practices so much as amalgamate existing knowledge..." Was it a scientist or inventor who said something about achieving greatness by standing on the shoulders of Giants? So... Thanks for explaining innovation, I guess?
I’m not trying to insult Florence Nightengale. Far from it. All I’m saying is that Janeway is no Florence Nightengale.
Ok, someone want to tell me why Lt. Commander Icheb, who is wearing a bloody Starfleet uniform and has the words “Lieutenant” and “Commander” before his name has the Civilian trait and NOT the Starfleet trait?! Looks like another copy/paste mistake. Please fix this, DB.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
Ok, someone want to tell me why Lt. Commander Icheb, who is wearing a bloody Starfleet uniform and has the words “Lieutenant” and “Commander” before his name has the Civilian trait and NOT the Starfleet trait?! Looks like another copy/paste mistake. Please fix this, DB.
I guess because he did not go to Starfleet but was trained on Voyager.
Ok, someone want to tell me why Lt. Commander Icheb, who is wearing a bloody Starfleet uniform and has the words “Lieutenant” and “Commander” before his name has the Civilian trait and NOT the Starfleet trait?! Looks like another copy/paste mistake. Please fix this, DB.
I guess because he did not go to Starfleet but was trained on Voyager.
I’m not sure that’s enough...a rank suggests he’s been given a field commission, rather than just being given an undefined yet significant amount of authority as Seven was given after joining the crew. No Seven variants except Indulgent Seven should have Starfleet (although it could be argued that Temporal Agent Seven would qualify as well) but LtC Icheb should based on his rank.
While looking up information for this reply, it appears that EV Suit Seven does have the Starfleet trait. I recall nothing from that episode (One Small Step) that suggests it’s a valid trait...I do recall that we definitely need Lt. John Kelly in the game, however.
Ok, someone want to tell me why Lt. Commander Icheb, who is wearing a bloody Starfleet uniform and has the words “Lieutenant” and “Commander” before his name has the Civilian trait and NOT the Starfleet trait?! Looks like another copy/paste mistake. Please fix this, DB.
I guess because he did not go to Starfleet but was trained on Voyager.
I’m not sure that’s enough...a rank suggests he’s been given a field commission, rather than just being given an undefined yet significant amount of authority as Seven was given after joining the crew. No Seven variants except Indulgent Seven should have Starfleet (although it could be argued that Temporal Agent Seven would qualify as well) but LtC Icheb should based on his rank.
While looking up information for this reply, it appears that EV Suit Seven does have the Starfleet trait. I recall nothing from that episode (One Small Step) that suggests it’s a valid trait...I do recall that we definitely need Lt. John Kelly in the game, however.
He is a later version of Icheb who is a civilian so they continued his civilian trait as he is a field commission officer but not an official Starfleet officer. If while commanding Voyager they made it back to Earth his rank would not be recognized by Starfleet. I think it works and I certainly do not want DB removing traits.
Ok, someone want to tell me why Lt. Commander Icheb, who is wearing a bloody Starfleet uniform and has the words “Lieutenant” and “Commander” before his name has the Civilian trait and NOT the Starfleet trait?! Looks like another copy/paste mistake. Please fix this, DB.
I guess because he did not go to Starfleet but was trained on Voyager.
I’m not sure that’s enough...a rank suggests he’s been given a field commission, rather than just being given an undefined yet significant amount of authority as Seven was given after joining the crew. No Seven variants except Indulgent Seven should have Starfleet (although it could be argued that Temporal Agent Seven would qualify as well) but LtC Icheb should based on his rank.
While looking up information for this reply, it appears that EV Suit Seven does have the Starfleet trait. I recall nothing from that episode (One Small Step) that suggests it’s a valid trait...I do recall that we definitely need Lt. John Kelly in the game, however.
He is a later version of Icheb who is a civilian so they continued his civilian trait as he is a field commission officer but not an official Starfleet officer. If while commanding Voyager they made it back to Earth his rank would not be recognized by Starfleet. I think it works and I certainly do not want DB removing traits.
Naomi Wildman is the same situation. But she has the Starfleet trait and is not a civilian.
I can see the argument either way, but Wildman and this Icheb should at least be consistent.
I just checked other crew, Tactical Neelix has the Starfleet trait and is missing civilian. Given both Neelix and Wildman have been like that for a while, Icheb should be modified to be consistent.
Comments
Haha, I thought it would be at the length of my post.
I figured I would see where you were going. Then I saw JJ movie and decided "nope, this isn't for me."
1) TOS was campy wish-fulfillment set in space. Kirk always solved everything and got the girl because that was literally the genre of the show. It personally isn’t my favorite (which is personally why I find TOS okay-ish instead of outstanding) but it didn’t pretend to be something it wasn’t.
2) In TNG, Picard isn’t just “some dude” or even “some captain”. He’s one of the most experienced captains in the fleet, and probably the most well-respected one, because he’s the captain of the flagship. Someone who has been doing the job as long as he has, and doing it well as long as he has, is going to know a lot of things. He’s also going to get some leeway from the admirals because his job is a literal stepping stone to the admiralty. Someone who gets the flagship is at least going to be a two star, if not more. And Picard didn’t go around telling his superiors off. He might’ve strongly disagreed with them, but it was almost always in a relatively civilized way. And push come to shove, he usually followed his orders (or found ways to creatively disobey them in ways he couldn’t get in too much trouble for.)
3). Sisko *was* Marty Stu-ish, but the literal premise of the show was that he was the Enissary that the Bajoran religion foretold. In addition, the show also almost immediately showed us that the Bajoran Prophets were real beings with extraordinary god-like powers. I think that whole conceit was not the direction I would have preferred for the show, but you could explain away a lot of the Marty Stu/deus ex machina stuff by the fact Sisko was chosen by literal gods as the man for the job and therefore his decisions almost always inexplicably working made sense to the extent you accepted that premise.
4) Plenty of people complained about Janeway at the time, and they should have. Janeway was supposed to be a former science officer on her first command, and instead they imbued her with the leadership/tactical ability of Alexander the Great. Realistically, a bunch of people should have been killed and they should have had to give up their journey and settle on a planet by the second or third season. Basically, Janeway was made nearly god-like but without the actual god excuse that Sisko had.
I would. I think I compared her to Kevin Sorbo's character in Andromeda earlier - a man. Spock is deeply flawed and often denied by Kirk and mocked by McCoy. Sisko is a good officer but when he needs science stuff done, he's asking for help and advice. Picard often gets outplayed by the aliens of the week and knows when to rely on others to find a solution to the issue at hand. Janeway was no saint and sometimes harsh (Tuvix) or authoritarian (denying the doctor sentient life rights). I'm still waiting on Burnham to say "I don't know", "what's your opinion?" or "I need help".
This may not be common knowledge, so here's a link to some information about Florence Nightingale. She was a bright lady who used some science to improve medical practices, then led the way on their implementation in a male-dominated profession. Kind of like being good at science, then getting stranded in the Delta Quadrant and working against many adversaries to get your crew home. When I think of Janeway, I think more Florence Nightingale than Mary Sue.
And not only that, maybe we can also say that our standards in storytelling are a lot different than they were in the 60s,70s,80s, and 90s. People expect more nuanced and realistic characters.
So the question maybe shouldn’t be, “Well, is Burnham acting any differently than Kirk?” but, “Is she a good character?”
I acknowledge there has been sexism and there is still sexism now. But that doesn’t mean to balance that out, we need a one-note space cowboy that happens to be female instead of male because half a century ago we had Captain Kirk. We should just focus on making better characters and having better stories to tell.
...and she made them 37 photon torpedoes last 7 years...
Fully Fused Fully Equipped Level 100 Skills: ENG 980 (141-310), SEC 471 (101-151), SCI 1272 (207-433)
Traits: Civilian, Brunali, Borg, Astrophysicist, Prodigy, Innovator, Federation
Lt. Commander Icheb looks good. Good traits and a voyage score of 3394. Prodigy, Innovator, Borg, and Astrophysicist comes up a lot in voyages in eng and sci slots for me. I hope next week though that we can earn another Picard show legendary and a Picard super rare cause this mega be too sparse.
I think DB's statement was that crew from existing shows are here to support Picard. I bet we get an actual Picard mega event closer to June.
Indeed. March and August should be booked already (Disco s3 and the traditional player's choice mega respectively) so that leaves June for a Picard mega.
I don’t think those comparisons are directly analogous.
1. Florence Nightingale was heavily disliked. Sure, she became a revered figure later, to people who didn’t know her, but on a personal level, a lot of people disliked her because she was dogmatic, inflexible, and essentially convinced of her own righteousness. Her outcomes were good, but she rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
This is pretty typical, honestly, of these sorts of innovative figures, hardly an aberration.
But Janeway? She easily takes the Maquis and makes one big happy family. The only people who truly dislike her are “bad”: the Cardassian spy and the emotionally disturbed Betazoid. Completely unrealistic.
2. Florence Nightingale didn’t pioneer the research into nursing and best practices so much as amalgamate existing knowledge, and be placed into a position where she could enforce those practices.
Janeway, though, just pulls stuff out of her [posterior]. What was Starfleet thinking, that they ignored this scientific and tactical genius from the ranks of Ensign to Commander? She could have stopped the Borg at Wolf 359 singlehandedly!
3. Nightingale achieved what she did through research, hard work and a refusal to give up.
Janeway made dumb decisions (when she wasn’t re-writing the laws of physics) that she managed to get out of time and again because her enemies cackled and searched for sharks with laser beams.
I mean, I could go on and on.
Is the players choice traditional?
No. And anyone who thinks, "they did it last year so they'll do it again at the same time and the same way" should look at Christmas and Convergence Day.
How does that compare to Protomorphosis Barclay? I think a lot of us have him now.
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
You’re not done yet. You still have one more “Enterprise” captain to critique
I never watched ENT regularly! Sorry.
WOW! Sometimes these posts get waaaaaaaaaay out there in left field. Way out there by the fence ... and the corn patch ... and strange unsupervised children. (and even aliens maybe!)
My Captain Idol's
My DataCore page
My Spreadsheet
Icheb is about 40-50 points up on both Barclay and Survivalist Kirk, the second we all got as a freebie.
- So in my books, that's about equal for voyages ... but I already have Barclay at 5/5 and Kirk at 2/5.
- Both Kirk and Barclay have really good traits that come up a lot for voyages ... Barclay has Innovator and Astroph. ... yeah Borg is new (but I slot in 5/5 Assimilated La Forge then).
- Kirk is better for events opportunities in general and is better in Gauntlet by a mile, I do run into him at times.
- I like Barclay's dual 1000+ bases, but for shuttle seats, it all depends really.
- We're all getting at least 4/5 of an SCI #1 base in Picard ... that's 3 stars up on Icheb for the large majority of players.
Overall I rate him okay, and specifically for my crew he'd be a bit surplus, I'd rather sink 3 citations into Kirk to immortalise him, but he'd provide width.
I'm still going to go for top 1500 ... because I'll be pulling packs at the end of the mega and I'd be bummed to get him if I didn't already have him.
My crew is similarly situated. That's all great advice. Thanks.
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
With statements like "when she wasn't re-writing the laws of physics" when talking about a science fiction show, I suggest you not "go on." You will make yourself look silly. I could address your arguments point-by-point, but that would also be silly. You clearly did not like the show and I won't be convincing you otherwise.
But I will defend my girl, Flo in your point #2. "Florence Nightingale didn’t pioneer the research into nursing and best practices so much as amalgamate existing knowledge..." Was it a scientist or inventor who said something about achieving greatness by standing on the shoulders of Giants? So... Thanks for explaining innovation, I guess?
This is a good point. A key part of the fun of a mega-event is having lots of toys in the sandbox. I thawed my three Odos and Sevenses (Sevenii? Twenty One?) for this week, in hopes of clearing thresholds during phase 1. I doubt they'
Excellent points, @AviTrek. I didn't consciously put together the scheduling effect on bonus crew, but this might just be the real issue. One of the key appeals of a mega-event is getting to play with so many of my toys in the sandbox and there isn't much call for doing that. Astrophysicist is a perfectly fine bonus trait, but not if having a bonus trait is moot.
I’m not trying to insult Florence Nightengale. Far from it. All I’m saying is that Janeway is no Florence Nightengale.
Remember kids, Romulan Disruptors don’t have stun!
I guess because he did not go to Starfleet but was trained on Voyager.
I’m not sure that’s enough...a rank suggests he’s been given a field commission, rather than just being given an undefined yet significant amount of authority as Seven was given after joining the crew. No Seven variants except Indulgent Seven should have Starfleet (although it could be argued that Temporal Agent Seven would qualify as well) but LtC Icheb should based on his rank.
While looking up information for this reply, it appears that EV Suit Seven does have the Starfleet trait. I recall nothing from that episode (One Small Step) that suggests it’s a valid trait...I do recall that we definitely need Lt. John Kelly in the game, however.
He is a later version of Icheb who is a civilian so they continued his civilian trait as he is a field commission officer but not an official Starfleet officer. If while commanding Voyager they made it back to Earth his rank would not be recognized by Starfleet. I think it works and I certainly do not want DB removing traits.
Naomi Wildman is the same situation. But she has the Starfleet trait and is not a civilian.
I can see the argument either way, but Wildman and this Icheb should at least be consistent.