I've given this a few days to settle, so that my initial thoughts and impressions wouldn't overly influence my conclusions. That said, I consider this offer to have been deceptive at best and malicious at worst.
While I strive to not attribute to malice that which can also be explained by incompetence, the offer's timing, wording and visual art appear to be deceptive by design. I can't reasonably conclude that this offer was an honest mistake.
The worst thing an entertainment can do is make customers feel stupid and embarrassed for having been excited about it. This makes me feel stupid and embarrassed for my investment in this game.
The response I got from CS was a flat out lie. They added "Each pack will include three items" to the description that isn't in game. They denied my request.
PS didn't deny anything, but it was phrased poorly. The rep mentioned that they would need to remove the items you received from the pack to proceed with the refund, and are waiting for your confirmation.
As for the text describing the content of the offer, it is the same as the one that was used in the in-game mail related to this pack.
@all
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
@all
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
With 8 3* crew included and the odds of a 3* at 91%, that's 11.375% chance of getting the new Picard. In a standard Tuesday pack with 3 4*, the odds of each is 30%.
With 20 4* crew included and the odds of a 4* at 7%, that's .35% chance of getting a specific 4*.
The 5* odds are so bad they're not even worth mentioning.
I realize you wanted to provide a better chance of specific crew, but because of how it was implemented, this ended up being even worse odds than normal.
If you had done a standard Tuesday pack with 3 4* and 3 5* it would have been better odds for the crew included and no one would have felt cheated.
@all
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
With 8 3* crew included and the odds of a 3* at 91%, that's 11.375% chance of getting the new Picard. In a standard Tuesday pack with 3 4*, the odds of each is 30%.
With 20 4* crew included and the odds of a 4* at 7%, that's .35% chance of getting a specific 4*.
The 5* odds are so bad they're not even worth mentioning.
I realize you wanted to provide a better chance of specific crew, but because of how it was implemented, this ended up being even worse odds than normal.
If you had done a standard Tuesday pack with 3 4* and 3 5* it would have been better odds for the crew included and no one would have felt cheated.
I would even add, if this was a standard 10 pack and had a guaranteed 4*/5* drop of one of the diplomats. Then at least the pack wouldn't feel like worse value than a standard 10x. The odds would be worse than the Tuesday pack for the specific crew, but you would still know you are getting a diplomat and wouldn't feel cheated otherwise. The 3* could have been limited to the 8 diplomats including the new Picard. Then because people got 10 cards per pack the odds of getting Picard would have been much closer to reasonable.
The problem with the pack was 650 DIL only offered 3 slots, no guarantee of a 4*, and had trainers in one of the slots. That made the pack substantially worse than other offers.
@all
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
And pricing? Both the Pull itself, and the cashy folding money offer were clearly too over-priced, based on customer feedback. Could you pass that along, as well?
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
This screenshot, with drop rates of the Diplomatic Overload right next to the regular portal, demonstrates how misleading it is. The drop rates are posted only for the one slot that has a 3* or higher diplomat and do not mention trainers, rations, honor or 2* crew. The other two slots, if they do not drop the same items as the primary one, need to be listed as well.
the information provided in the information screen was pretty accurate, if you took the time to read it.
I looked at the offer description in the art and was skeptical about why it was laid out like that. i'm glad I checked the fleet discord channel before doing anything and saw it was a 3 pull. That was when i read the info box and it made even more sense.
I believe most of the base here is angry because they've become creatures of habit and expected a 650 dil or $9.99 LTO to be similar to what has happened in the past.
DB is not in the wrong here, but the optics would be better if they did use a different price point, as suggested earlier.
FOR DB - this should be a lesson learned. Use different currencies than the usual
For the playerbase - get back to reading the pack descriptions/info box before you get so excited about a new character or offer. do your research, check with your fleet and look for screenshots. (if you're in a fleet that doesn't use a 3rd party app for chat ... seriously, get that ball rolling or move if they're too stubborn). Or hop onto the Timelines discord server. plenty of educated people there (the link is on the wiki)
@all
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
And pricing? Both the Pull itself, and the cashy folding money offer were clearly too over-priced, based on customer feedback. Could you pass that along, as well?
All of the feedback was taken into consideration, including the pricing.
@all
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
And pricing? Both the Pull itself, and the cashy folding money offer were clearly too over-priced, based on customer feedback. Could you pass that along, as well?
All of the feedback was taken into consideration, including the pricing.
Thank you, Shan. I made some suggestions somewhere in the thread for pricing that felt much more equitable for the things received. Just as a kind of feedback.
I did not do the offer, so I have neither a dawg in the fight, nor an axe to grind.
As I mention regularly, I'm pretty sure {at least hopeful} that everyone realizes you do not make decisions. You just convey info between the players and the game staff. However, I understand that does put you in a position to sometimes become the focus of player wrath. Unfair as that is. Thank you for everything you do for us on the Forums!!!!!
🖖👍💖👍🖖
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Just adding to everything already (and yes i know Shan has already said they've taken everything in)... but all players will expect a 4* or better from anything that costs 650 DIL or more, it's just become the standard. I think players could have gotten on board with the 3 slots instead of 10 to have the increased diplomat chance and all that is somewhat of an ok idea, but no pack, ever, that costs the 650 or higher should include greens, or TRAINERS (oh my god, do not include trainers) or anything of that sort.....
The pack itself is an interesting kind of different thing to explore, it's completely the pricing that's so far off it's not even funny. This pack should have cost like 250k credits or something it was that bad
@all
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
And pricing? Both the Pull itself, and the cashy folding money offer were clearly too over-priced, based on customer feedback. Could you pass that along, as well?
All of the feedback was taken into consideration, including the pricing.
As all of the feedback was taken into consideration, there is one thing I don't understand. As I opened the offer straight after it was publisher, I gather I was within the first minutes. I mentioned this in my ticket. But no chance that I get a new possibility to get a version of Picard at El Adrel, which was the only reason I accepted the offer. What would have been easier than offering this. It happened before, but with TP isn't getting a good start.
I got two of the picards, but.... trainers? rations? I also got three green Ent-D picards. Green crew do not belong in any dil-purchasable pack. Two green crew are listed in the info but the image says rare+ crew. The inclusion of honor is nice, but this is objectively worse than regular 10-pulls and are overpriced. They are probably worse than merit pulls. Do not serve up this "deal" again
Agreed, but not on which is better. There is a 2% chance of getting a legendary. That is, about 4 times better than a merit pull. Also one is a guaranteed rare. But that gets countered by one that can only be rare, uncommon, common or honor.
It is bad but I am after legendary crew. I see this better than a merit pull. But, for me I treat legendary crew as worth $10. That means this pack is only worth $0.2 to me. And 10 of them as $2. But the extra honor might be worth a little more to others as well as a legendary from the specified collection.
I was comparing it to merit pulls in terms of honor payout, not legendary chance. But however others value them thats fine.
Odd that the best freebee (universal thrme begold, giving players best chance for something usefull to them) to one of the worst pack offers (650 dil for maybe a specific blue crew but likely some blue trainers and a 2* Ent D picard.) came out on the same day.
I have to say, and I did make another post to the point. You are absolutely correct. One cost 725 merits the other 650 di. You are still correct I was wrong to not mention in my first post that the merit pull wins because of the cost.
As all of the feedback was taken into consideration, there is one thing I don't understand. As I opened the offer straight after it was publisher, I gather I was within the first minutes. I mentioned this in my ticket. But no chance that I get a new possibility to get a version of Picard at El Adrel, which was the only reason I accepted the offer. What would have been easier than offering this. It happened before, but with TP isn't getting a good start.
The fact that the new Picard was not live within the first 2 minutes is not related to the pack structure.
Regardless this should not have happened and yes we will check who was affected.
For your specific case I can confirm that your purchase, and the pulls, were made well after the 2 minutes window. So you didn't miss on the opportunity to get that specific crew, but he was not guaranteed.
I hope this helps, I've also let our Support Team know that this kind of reassurance would be helpful when replying to tickets.
I did not do the offer, so I have neither a dawg in the fight, nor an axe to grind.
Yet like many many times you act as if TP would have cheated you badly, like this was a matter of life or death to you personally. With colorful insultive words like
"1} The new company is crooked.
2} The new company is incompetent."
For your info: In each and every mobile game you have bad, solid and great offers. It is up to us users to invest in the better ones. If we go to a store and buy something bad (because we did not read the fine print, the expiry date or whatever) it is also on us.
Well, at least the users who do invest which for very understandable reasons you can´t do as much as you may wish. A further reason why your many furious words and your level of being upset in this thread are over the top. Sometimes it seems like you want to unleash your real life frustrations in this place.
I know you will say now, like always 2, have a nice day. Thanks, I intend to do exactly that...
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Misconception? More like miscalculation. On your part. There is no redeeming aspect of this offer. None whatsoever. Every part of it was awful and horrible and every last person who bought it should be refunded in full.
i do appreciate the attempts to offer new things.
I think some way of getting input from players about pricing might help.
in this case, the comparison to a single pull, might have helped to get to a better price. I know we as players will underprice offers. But it still might help to have our comments for pricing, just for another view point.
I did not do the offer, so I have neither a dawg in the fight, nor an axe to grind.
Yet like many many times you act as if TP would have cheated you badly, like this was a matter of life or death to you personally. With colorful insultive words like
"1} The new company is crooked.
2} The new company is incompetent."
For your info: In each and every mobile game you have bad, solid and great offers. It is up to us users to invest in the better ones. If we go to a store and buy something bad (because we did not read the fine print, the expiry date or whatever) it is also on us.
Well, at least the users who do invest which for very understandable reasons you can´t do as much as you may wish. A further reason why your many furious words and your level of being upset in this thread are over the top. Sometimes it seems like you want to unleash your real life frustrations in this place.
I know you will say now, like always 2, have a nice day. Thanks, I intend to do exactly that...
Selective quoting to prove a FALSE point says a lot more about you than it does about me. In going back pages to find one post that could be selectively quoted to make a false accusation about me, did you happen to see the post within just a few replies of the one you falsely selectively quoted to libel me, where I made it very clear I was not saying either of those things were accurate statements, but rather the two camps people seemed to be pitching their tents in?
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
I did not do the offer, so I have neither a dawg in the fight, nor an axe to grind.
Yet like many many times you act as if TP would have cheated you badly, like this was a matter of life or death to you personally. With colorful insultive words like
"1} The new company is crooked.
2} The new company is incompetent."
For your info: In each and every mobile game you have bad, solid and great offers. It is up to us users to invest in the better ones. If we go to a store and buy something bad (because we did not read the fine print, the expiry date or whatever) it is also on us.
Well, at least the users who do invest which for very understandable reasons you can´t do as much as you may wish. A further reason why your many furious words and your level of being upset in this thread are over the top. Sometimes it seems like you want to unleash your real life frustrations in this place.
I know you will say now, like always 2, have a nice day. Thanks, I intend to do exactly that...
Found it for you. Perhaps you missed it, since it was on the next page.......
I wouldn't attribute it to either of those things. I don't know why they thought that this could be a useful offer (I mean, who knows, maybe for some of the new players it is) but I don't think that they expected this to happen or that they just threw random stuff in the pack to see what would happen because they just don't care.
I think that CS should probably give those who misunderstood the offer for something else and are very annoyed about it some sort of refund or compensation. And I hope that they will not introduce highly requested crew as 3* with this sort of offer in the future
But I don't think that this specific event says anything about the company. I especially don't think that they intentionally tried to "con" people, as some mentioned. The company has nothing to gain from a loss of trust in the playerbase.
And they just gave us a free begold too. I think that shows that neither of those two assumptions is true and that this was just some sort of mistake.
I didn't endorse either opinion. Just summarized what people said they were feeling it meant.
I think people's expectations were based on previous offers. Usually 650 Dilithiums is for a ten Pull. 725 Merits is a Norm three Pull. Under this offer, it seems like Tipping Point is saying "650 Dilithiums equals 725 Merits". I will jump on a Dilithiums sale like that.......
I think simply the price points were not well thought out.
I have no issue with people getting Trainers or Rep Rats that need them. But the price point was a little too much.
If you got a three Pull for 200-300 Merits, and the folding cashy money offer had been about $2.49/10 Pulls, they might have made more money, with less upset players.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
I may be in a minority of 1, but I looked at the offer, realised it was for three cards and there was no guarantee of getting anything useful and, in fact, looking at the published drop rates, there was no value in pursuing it.
Now, if people did buy and are subsequently compensated AND IN FACT REWARDED for having wasted their dil, I would feel aggrieved.
It's seems that the most likely answer is "poor communication". It's not like a bunch of Tipping Point people sat around a table in a conference room, rubbing their hands and telling each other "We're gonna con them rubes good". The description said that each Pack would drop one item from List A, one item from List B, and one item from List C.
1+1+1=3. So, it was implied that each Pull was a three Pull. The problem is that the 650 Dilithiums price has traditionally been associated with a ten Pull.
Premium Ten Pull
Event Ten Pull
Tuesday Pack Ten Pull
Special Pack Ten Pull
People saw 650 Dilithiums, and thought that was what this was. When you hear hoofbeats in Wyoming, you assume horses, not zebras.
I don't think for a second that Professor Evillillain was sitting in the darkness of his secret lair, twirling his evil mustache every time he saw someone click the purchase button on his SuperSnooperScope..........
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
The response I got from CS was a flat out lie. They added "Each pack will include three items" to the description that isn't in game. They denied my request.
I have screenshots of the ad that doesn't say anything about 3 items.
The response I got from CS was a flat out lie. They added "Each pack will include three items" to the description that isn't in game. They denied my request.
PS didn't deny anything, but it was phrased poorly. The rep mentioned that they would need to remove the items you received from the pack to proceed with the refund, and are waiting for your confirmation.
As for the text describing the content of the offer, it is the same as the one that was used in the in-game mail related to this pack.
The response I got from CS was a flat out lie. They added "Each pack will include three items" to the description that isn't in game. They denied my request.
I have screenshots of the ad that doesn't say anything about 3 items.
I may be in a minority of 1, but I looked at the offer, realised it was for three cards and there was no guarantee of getting anything useful and, in fact, looking at the published drop rates, there was no value in pursuing it.
Now, if people did buy and are subsequently compensated AND IN FACT REWARDED for having wasted their dil, I would feel aggrieved.
But why?
It's not like they're getting a free Gary Seven or anything, they're just getting their money or dilithium back and the items they received in the purchase are removed from their account. This has been done before, whenever someone buys stuff by mistake.
I have to agree with the above. This is one of the worst rip-offs I've seen in fremium games. If the cost had been ~1/2 what it was, it would have been a lot more palatable. But 650 dil for 3 cards, none of which was a 4 or 5 star is unconscionable.
The response I got from CS was a flat out lie. They added "Each pack will include three items" to the description that isn't in game. They denied my request.
I have screenshots of the ad that doesn't say anything about 3 items.
if you read it carefully, it describes 3 drops. if you skim over it, i can see why someone would be confused.
The response I got from CS was a flat out lie. They added "Each pack will include three items" to the description that isn't in game. They denied my request.
I have screenshots of the ad that doesn't say anything about 3 items.
if you read it carefully, it describes 3 drops. if you skim over it, i can see why someone would be confused.
That, and as I said, the fact that four years of Pulls has established that 650 Dilithiums usually is a Ten Pull. If people did not catch that it was offering three Items total, and they came to the conclusion that 650 Dilithiums meant a Ten Pull, I can understand people misunderstanding. I don't attribute any malice to Tipping Point. I just think the two big takeaways are always read the details closely before purchase for players, and write more exact descriptions including clear numerics for Tipping Point...............
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Comments
While I strive to not attribute to malice that which can also be explained by incompetence, the offer's timing, wording and visual art appear to be deceptive by design. I can't reasonably conclude that this offer was an honest mistake.
The worst thing an entertainment can do is make customers feel stupid and embarrassed for having been excited about it. This makes me feel stupid and embarrassed for my investment in this game.
PS didn't deny anything, but it was phrased poorly. The rep mentioned that they would need to remove the items you received from the pack to proceed with the refund, and are waiting for your confirmation.
As for the text describing the content of the offer, it is the same as the one that was used in the in-game mail related to this pack.
The idea behind this pack was to offer something different, a more focused pack, with a better chance to get specific crew.
We understand, and regret, the confusion and misconception surrounding it.
Thank you again for your feedback, it will help us improve for future similar initiatives, especially regarding imagery, and description.
With 8 3* crew included and the odds of a 3* at 91%, that's 11.375% chance of getting the new Picard. In a standard Tuesday pack with 3 4*, the odds of each is 30%.
With 20 4* crew included and the odds of a 4* at 7%, that's .35% chance of getting a specific 4*.
The 5* odds are so bad they're not even worth mentioning.
I realize you wanted to provide a better chance of specific crew, but because of how it was implemented, this ended up being even worse odds than normal.
If you had done a standard Tuesday pack with 3 4* and 3 5* it would have been better odds for the crew included and no one would have felt cheated.
Shan is TP.
Well then i thank TP for making me a free player.
I would even add, if this was a standard 10 pack and had a guaranteed 4*/5* drop of one of the diplomats. Then at least the pack wouldn't feel like worse value than a standard 10x. The odds would be worse than the Tuesday pack for the specific crew, but you would still know you are getting a diplomat and wouldn't feel cheated otherwise. The 3* could have been limited to the 8 diplomats including the new Picard. Then because people got 10 cards per pack the odds of getting Picard would have been much closer to reasonable.
The problem with the pack was 650 DIL only offered 3 slots, no guarantee of a 4*, and had trainers in one of the slots. That made the pack substantially worse than other offers.
And pricing? Both the Pull itself, and the cashy folding money offer were clearly too over-priced, based on customer feedback. Could you pass that along, as well?
I looked at the offer description in the art and was skeptical about why it was laid out like that. i'm glad I checked the fleet discord channel before doing anything and saw it was a 3 pull. That was when i read the info box and it made even more sense.
I believe most of the base here is angry because they've become creatures of habit and expected a 650 dil or $9.99 LTO to be similar to what has happened in the past.
DB is not in the wrong here, but the optics would be better if they did use a different price point, as suggested earlier.
FOR DB - this should be a lesson learned. Use different currencies than the usual
For the playerbase - get back to reading the pack descriptions/info box before you get so excited about a new character or offer. do your research, check with your fleet and look for screenshots. (if you're in a fleet that doesn't use a 3rd party app for chat ... seriously, get that ball rolling or move if they're too stubborn). Or hop onto the Timelines discord server. plenty of educated people there (the link is on the wiki)
Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
All of the feedback was taken into consideration, including the pricing.
Thank you, Shan. I made some suggestions somewhere in the thread for pricing that felt much more equitable for the things received. Just as a kind of feedback.
I did not do the offer, so I have neither a dawg in the fight, nor an axe to grind.
As I mention regularly, I'm pretty sure {at least hopeful} that everyone realizes you do not make decisions. You just convey info between the players and the game staff. However, I understand that does put you in a position to sometimes become the focus of player wrath. Unfair as that is. Thank you for everything you do for us on the Forums!!!!!
🖖👍💖👍🖖
The pack itself is an interesting kind of different thing to explore, it's completely the pricing that's so far off it's not even funny. This pack should have cost like 250k credits or something it was that bad
As all of the feedback was taken into consideration, there is one thing I don't understand. As I opened the offer straight after it was publisher, I gather I was within the first minutes. I mentioned this in my ticket. But no chance that I get a new possibility to get a version of Picard at El Adrel, which was the only reason I accepted the offer. What would have been easier than offering this. It happened before, but with TP isn't getting a good start.
I have to say, and I did make another post to the point. You are absolutely correct. One cost 725 merits the other 650 di. You are still correct I was wrong to not mention in my first post that the merit pull wins because of the cost.
The fact that the new Picard was not live within the first 2 minutes is not related to the pack structure.
Regardless this should not have happened and yes we will check who was affected.
For your specific case I can confirm that your purchase, and the pulls, were made well after the 2 minutes window. So you didn't miss on the opportunity to get that specific crew, but he was not guaranteed.
I hope this helps, I've also let our Support Team know that this kind of reassurance would be helpful when replying to tickets.
Yet like many many times you act as if TP would have cheated you badly, like this was a matter of life or death to you personally. With colorful insultive words like
"1} The new company is crooked.
2} The new company is incompetent."
For your info: In each and every mobile game you have bad, solid and great offers. It is up to us users to invest in the better ones. If we go to a store and buy something bad (because we did not read the fine print, the expiry date or whatever) it is also on us.
Well, at least the users who do invest which for very understandable reasons you can´t do as much as you may wish. A further reason why your many furious words and your level of being upset in this thread are over the top. Sometimes it seems like you want to unleash your real life frustrations in this place.
I know you will say now, like always 2, have a nice day. Thanks, I intend to do exactly that...
Misconception? More like miscalculation. On your part. There is no redeeming aspect of this offer. None whatsoever. Every part of it was awful and horrible and every last person who bought it should be refunded in full.
i do appreciate the attempts to offer new things.
I think some way of getting input from players about pricing might help.
in this case, the comparison to a single pull, might have helped to get to a better price. I know we as players will underprice offers. But it still might help to have our comments for pricing, just for another view point.
Selective quoting to prove a FALSE point says a lot more about you than it does about me. In going back pages to find one post that could be selectively quoted to make a false accusation about me, did you happen to see the post within just a few replies of the one you falsely selectively quoted to libel me, where I made it very clear I was not saying either of those things were accurate statements, but rather the two camps people seemed to be pitching their tents in?
Found it for you. Perhaps you missed it, since it was on the next page.......
Now, if people did buy and are subsequently compensated AND IN FACT REWARDED for having wasted their dil, I would feel aggrieved.
1+1+1=3. So, it was implied that each Pull was a three Pull. The problem is that the 650 Dilithiums price has traditionally been associated with a ten Pull.
Premium Ten Pull
Event Ten Pull
Tuesday Pack Ten Pull
Special Pack Ten Pull
People saw 650 Dilithiums, and thought that was what this was. When you hear hoofbeats in Wyoming, you assume horses, not zebras.
I don't think for a second that Professor Evillillain was sitting in the darkness of his secret lair, twirling his evil mustache every time he saw someone click the purchase button on his SuperSnooperScope..........
I have screenshots of the ad that doesn't say anything about 3 items.
Shan answered this
But why?
It's not like they're getting a free Gary Seven or anything, they're just getting their money or dilithium back and the items they received in the purchase are removed from their account. This has been done before, whenever someone buys stuff by mistake.
if you read it carefully, it describes 3 drops. if you skim over it, i can see why someone would be confused.
Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
That, and as I said, the fact that four years of Pulls has established that 650 Dilithiums usually is a Ten Pull. If people did not catch that it was offering three Items total, and they came to the conclusion that 650 Dilithiums meant a Ten Pull, I can understand people misunderstanding. I don't attribute any malice to Tipping Point. I just think the two big takeaways are always read the details closely before purchase for players, and write more exact descriptions including clear numerics for Tipping Point...............