Anyone else find it ironic Jurati is in the Do No Harm collection since she killed Maddox?
Did any of the other 64 Physicians kill someone? If so, then no. 🖖
McCoy for sure. Mirror Phlox. Prime Phlox let an entire species go extinct, when he couldd have cured them.
It’s been a while since I saw that one but wasn’t that technically Archer’s call?
I haven't seen it for a bit, either. But I thought the conflict was Archer wanted them saved, and Phlox argued for natural selection. Could be the other way, though. Interfering with nature was usually more Archer and other Humans.
EDIT: Forgot Beverly. She killed Troi, at least for a little while, to break the connection between Lot Lizard Troi and that ambassador.......
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Anyone else find it ironic Jurati is in the Do No Harm collection since she killed Maddox?
Did any of the other 64 Physicians kill someone? If so, then no. 🖖
McCoy for sure. Mirror Phlox. Prime Phlox let an entire species go extinct, when he couldd have cured them.
It’s been a while since I saw that one but wasn’t that technically Archer’s call?
I haven't seen it for a bit, either. But I thought the conflict was Archer wanted them saved, and Phlox argued for natural selection. Could be the other way, though.
That’s how I remember it too, but ultimately I think it was Archers decision in the end.
Anyone else find it ironic Jurati is in the Do No Harm collection since she killed Maddox?
Did any of the other 64 Physicians kill someone? If so, then no. 🖖
McCoy for sure. Mirror Phlox. Prime Phlox let an entire species go extinct, when he couldd have cured them.
It’s been a while since I saw that one but wasn’t that technically Archer’s call?
I haven't seen it for a bit, either. But I thought the conflict was Archer wanted them saved, and Phlox argued for natural selection. Could be the other way, though.
That’s how I remember it too, but ultimately I think it was Archers decision in the end.
Yeah, Archer had to make the final call. He did need to be led to it, though. IIRC
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Anyone else find it ironic Jurati is in the Do No Harm collection since she killed Maddox?
Did any of the other 64 Physicians kill someone? If so, then no. 🖖
McCoy for sure. Mirror Phlox. Prime Phlox let an entire species go extinct, when he couldd have cured them.
This is absolutely not true, Phlox did not commit genocide. Show us the bodies.
They would have seen the bodies but Enterprise never cared to go back and check on the Valakians from the Dear Doctor episode. Phlox found a cure and refused to give it to them because Phlox and Archer believed the Menk on the planet would take over given an opportunity. The Valakians very likely all died. But even if the Valakians had somehow miraculously found a cure on their own or from someone else many would have died or been irreparably harmed in the meantime. Enterprise could have stayed longer to find a way to help the Menk on the planet while also helping the Valakians but Archer was too eager to go exploring to care. My least favorite trek episode and the reason I stopped watching Enterprise for many years.
Archer wanted to save them, but let himself be persuaded by Phlox due to a fundamental misunderstanding of natural selection. The die-off of the one species and the theoretical takeover of the other was also not an immediate thing. It would be over time. If the Enterprise of that time could do it, a whole lot of other spacefaring people could do it. Phlox ultimately did nothing but extend the suffering, since they would be cured by some group way before they died off. And if they ever found out that the Enterprise didn't help, then they would probably become enemies of the Federation. I agree it was a poorly written episode that failed even more than most at projecting decisions into the future. That is saying something since failure to consider the future consequences is a hallmark of Star Trek writing. Even without considering the distant future, there is something wrong with saying, "We know you are a nice species, but we are going to let you die off naturally despite our ability to help because we anticipate a theoretical chance that this other species will developed more if you are out of the way. It is science, you see. We hope you understand." It is about as stupid as several Next Generation episodes where they let entire planets die when help could have been provided. Worf's brother was reprimanded for that. Data was also reprimanded for helping a young girl avoid her planet's fate. There are several other examples. And yet other times they go out of their way to save a planet from natural events. The Human Q episode comes to mind. Why were those people saved? Surely life would have redeveloped from a Darwinian perspective. It is all jumbled ethics and inconsistencies.
I get all that, but none of you know what happened to those people after Enterprise left, so let's pump the brakes on accusing Phlox of something that nobody can prove. For all we know Phlox's decision motivated them to find a cure themselves.
I get all that, but none of you know what happened to those people after Enterprise left, so let's pump the brakes on accusing Phlox of something that nobody can prove. For all we know Phlox's decision motivated them to find a cure themselves.
I get all that, but none of you know what happened to those people after Enterprise left, so let's pump the brakes on accusing Phlox of something that nobody can prove. For all we know Phlox's decision motivated them to find a cure themselves.
We know for certain people died that would have been saved by Phlox’s cure. The question is how many. I believe the Enterprise was the first ship to help after their call of help had been generally ignored by two other groups. As Archer refused to give them the cure or warp technology so they could find others to help I think it highly likely they all died.
There are much greater forces at work than living beings. Nature progresses by trial and error, by success and failure. The stronger survive, the smarter survive. The Velokians had imperfections that made them not fit for this world. If Phlox would have given them the cure something else later on down the line would have saw to their extinction because they were not as fit for this world as the Menk were (would become). I absolutely loved that episode and feel the right decision was made and no one can convince me otherwise. Like he said, suppose someone came along and gave the Neanderthals an (my word) unbalanced advantage? Neanderthals were loaners. They found one fruit tree and guarded it with their lives. Cro-Magnons banded together like wolves and killed the Neanderthal and took his tree. Even if Cro-Magnon did not survive, the Neanderthal mentality would have seen them become extinct as well by the same means, only a different animal. Would that have happened, we would not have mankind at all. So that would have resulted in the extinction of all intelligent life, both species, not just one and a planet with no higher beings. Same story with the Velokians and Menk, just different circumstances
There are much greater forces at work than living beings. Nature progresses by trial and error, by success and failure. The stronger survive, the smarter survive. The Velokians had imperfections that made them not fit for this world. If Phlox would have given them the cure something else later on down the line would have saw to their extinction because they were not as fit for this world as the Menk were (would become). I absolutely loved that episode and feel the right decision was made and no one can convince me otherwise. Like he said, suppose someone came along and gave the Neanderthals an (my word) unbalanced advantage? Neanderthals were loaners. They found one fruit tree and guarded it with their lives. Cro-Magnons banded together like wolves and killed the Neanderthal and took his tree. Even if Cro-Magnon did not survive, the Neanderthal mentality would have seen them become extinct as well by the same means, only a different animal. Would that have happened, we would not have mankind at all. So that would have resulted in the extinction of all intelligent life, both species, not just one and a planet with no higher beings. Same story with the Velokians and Menk, just different circumstances
You could make the same argument for why Archer and Phlox should have helped them. The Valakians were smart enough to build space ships to find help. Or you could say that Phlox should have let all the Klingons die when they got sick. By your logic Shran should not have helped Archer with the Xindi. Why did a Denobulan and Vulcan agree to help a human ship? If you can help then you should help. Archer and Phlox could have helped both the Valakians and the Menk instead of purposefully chosing to help the Menk by not helping the Valakians. Given our current pandemic Archer and Phlox’s choice stands out even more as wrong. If a scientist or a country finds a cure for COVID-19 should that scientist or country hold back that cure only for themselves because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky enough to have found it? Should they decide who gets the cure and who does not? Or should they provide it to everyone?
There are much greater forces at work than living beings. Nature progresses by trial and error, by success and failure. The stronger survive, the smarter survive. The Velokians had imperfections that made them not fit for this world. If Phlox would have given them the cure something else later on down the line would have saw to their extinction because they were not as fit for this world as the Menk were (would become). I absolutely loved that episode and feel the right decision was made and no one can convince me otherwise. Like he said, suppose someone came along and gave the Neanderthals an (my word) unbalanced advantage? Neanderthals were loaners. They found one fruit tree and guarded it with their lives. Cro-Magnons banded together like wolves and killed the Neanderthal and took his tree. Even if Cro-Magnon did not survive, the Neanderthal mentality would have seen them become extinct as well by the same means, only a different animal. Would that have happened, we would not have mankind at all. So that would have resulted in the extinction of all intelligent life, both species, not just one and a planet with no higher beings. Same story with the Velokians and Menk, just different circumstances
You could make the same argument for why Archer and Phlox should have helped them. The Valakians were smart enough to build space ships to find help. Or you could say that Phlox should have let all the Klingons die when they got sick. By your logic Shran should not have helped Archer with the Xindi. Why did a Denobulan and Vulcan agree to help a human ship? If you can help then you should help. Archer and Phlox could have helped both the Valakians and the Menk instead of purposefully chosing to help the Menk by not helping the Valakians. Given our current pandemic Archer and Phlox’s choice stands out even more as wrong. If a scientist or a country finds a cure for COVID-19 should that scientist or country hold back that cure only for themselves because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky enough to have found it? Should they decide who gets the cure and who does not? Or should they provide it to everyone?
You made some great points, and I appreciate the shift/pivot in the discussion, because those are all valid points that are great to discuss/debate. And if I may, I also appreciate you walking back the proclamation of a commission of genocide.
I think that episode was very important for a lot of reasons, but one I never lose sight of when enjoying Enterprise is that this was humanity's first exploration of the galaxy, and this was not only the first time they experienced something of that magnitude, but it also showed that we were simply not prepared at all for something like that, and I think we can see the ripples of that episode impact future captains and CMOs.
There are much greater forces at work than living beings. Nature progresses by trial and error, by success and failure. The stronger survive, the smarter survive. The Velokians had imperfections that made them not fit for this world. If Phlox would have given them the cure something else later on down the line would have saw to their extinction because they were not as fit for this world as the Menk were (would become). I absolutely loved that episode and feel the right decision was made and no one can convince me otherwise. Like he said, suppose someone came along and gave the Neanderthals an (my word) unbalanced advantage? Neanderthals were loaners. They found one fruit tree and guarded it with their lives. Cro-Magnons banded together like wolves and killed the Neanderthal and took his tree. Even if Cro-Magnon did not survive, the Neanderthal mentality would have seen them become extinct as well by the same means, only a different animal. Would that have happened, we would not have mankind at all. So that would have resulted in the extinction of all intelligent life, both species, not just one and a planet with no higher beings. Same story with the Velokians and Menk, just different circumstances
You could make the same argument for why Archer and Phlox should have helped them. The Valakians were smart enough to build space ships to find help. Or you could say that Phlox should have let all the Klingons die when they got sick. By your logic Shran should not have helped Archer with the Xindi. Why did a Denobulan and Vulcan agree to help a human ship? If you can help then you should help. Archer and Phlox could have helped both the Valakians and the Menk instead of purposefully chosing to help the Menk by not helping the Valakians. Given our current pandemic Archer and Phlox’s choice stands out even more as wrong. If a scientist or a country finds a cure for COVID-19 should that scientist or country hold back that cure only for themselves because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky enough to have found it? Should they decide who gets the cure and who does not? Or should they provide it to everyone?
You made some great points, and I appreciate the shift/pivot in the discussion, because those are all valid points that are great to discuss/debate. And if I may, I also appreciate you walking back the proclamation of a commission of genocide.
I think that episode was very important for a lot of reasons, but one I never lose sight of when enjoying Enterprise is that this was humanity's first exploration of the galaxy, and this was not only the first time they experienced something of that magnitude, but it also showed that we were simply not prepared at all for something like that, and I think we can see the ripples of that episode impact future captains and CMOs.
It may well be safe to argue that the Valakian incident is why Starfleet instituted General
Order 1. Up to that point, I think Archer’s attitude towards certain Vulcan recommendations like non-interference was likely shared by other captains and top brass, and it would take something big like being forced to decide between the survival of two developing species to change that thinking.
There are much greater forces at work than living beings. Nature progresses by trial and error, by success and failure. The stronger survive, the smarter survive. The Velokians had imperfections that made them not fit for this world. If Phlox would have given them the cure something else later on down the line would have saw to their extinction because they were not as fit for this world as the Menk were (would become). I absolutely loved that episode and feel the right decision was made and no one can convince me otherwise. Like he said, suppose someone came along and gave the Neanderthals an (my word) unbalanced advantage? Neanderthals were loaners. They found one fruit tree and guarded it with their lives. Cro-Magnons banded together like wolves and killed the Neanderthal and took his tree. Even if Cro-Magnon did not survive, the Neanderthal mentality would have seen them become extinct as well by the same means, only a different animal. Would that have happened, we would not have mankind at all. So that would have resulted in the extinction of all intelligent life, both species, not just one and a planet with no higher beings. Same story with the Velokians and Menk, just different circumstances
You could make the same argument for why Archer and Phlox should have helped them. The Valakians were smart enough to build space ships to find help. Or you could say that Phlox should have let all the Klingons die when they got sick. By your logic Shran should not have helped Archer with the Xindi. Why did a Denobulan and Vulcan agree to help a human ship? If you can help then you should help. Archer and Phlox could have helped both the Valakians and the Menk instead of purposefully chosing to help the Menk by not helping the Valakians. Given our current pandemic Archer and Phlox’s choice stands out even more as wrong. If a scientist or a country finds a cure for COVID-19 should that scientist or country hold back that cure only for themselves because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky enough to have found it? Should they decide who gets the cure and who does not? Or should they provide it to everyone?
You made some great points, and I appreciate the shift/pivot in the discussion, because those are all valid points that are great to discuss/debate. And if I may, I also appreciate you walking back the proclamation of a commission of genocide.
I think that episode was very important for a lot of reasons, but one I never lose sight of when enjoying Enterprise is that this was humanity's first exploration of the galaxy, and this was not only the first time they experienced something of that magnitude, but it also showed that we were simply not prepared at all for something like that, and I think we can see the ripples of that episode impact future captains and CMOs.
It may well be safe to argue that the Valakian incident is why Starfleet instituted General
Order 1. Up to that point, I think Archer’s attitude towards certain Vulcan recommendations like non-interference was likely shared by other captains and top brass, and it would take something big like being forced to decide between the survival of two developing species to change that thinking.
And that is surely why they wrote the episode. I still find it the worst of the episodes (except the stupid love episodes and the even worse last episode). And it is fair to point out that other series have worse plotlines. I still like Enterprise. I also still believe Phlox made the wrong call. But we will never agree on that.
There are much greater forces at work than living beings. Nature progresses by trial and error, by success and failure. The stronger survive, the smarter survive. The Velokians had imperfections that made them not fit for this world. If Phlox would have given them the cure something else later on down the line would have saw to their extinction because they were not as fit for this world as the Menk were (would become). I absolutely loved that episode and feel the right decision was made and no one can convince me otherwise. Like he said, suppose someone came along and gave the Neanderthals an (my word) unbalanced advantage? Neanderthals were loaners. They found one fruit tree and guarded it with their lives. Cro-Magnons banded together like wolves and killed the Neanderthal and took his tree. Even if Cro-Magnon did not survive, the Neanderthal mentality would have seen them become extinct as well by the same means, only a different animal. Would that have happened, we would not have mankind at all. So that would have resulted in the extinction of all intelligent life, both species, not just one and a planet with no higher beings. Same story with the Velokians and Menk, just different circumstances
You could make the same argument for why Archer and Phlox should have helped them. The Valakians were smart enough to build space ships to find help. Or you could say that Phlox should have let all the Klingons die when they got sick. By your logic Shran should not have helped Archer with the Xindi. Why did a Denobulan and Vulcan agree to help a human ship? If you can help then you should help. Archer and Phlox could have helped both the Valakians and the Menk instead of purposefully chosing to help the Menk by not helping the Valakians. Given our current pandemic Archer and Phlox’s choice stands out even more as wrong. If a scientist or a country finds a cure for COVID-19 should that scientist or country hold back that cure only for themselves because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky enough to have found it? Should they decide who gets the cure and who does not? Or should they provide it to everyone?
You made some great points, and I appreciate the shift/pivot in the discussion, because those are all valid points that are great to discuss/debate. And if I may, I also appreciate you walking back the proclamation of a commission of genocide.
I think that episode was very important for a lot of reasons, but one I never lose sight of when enjoying Enterprise is that this was humanity's first exploration of the galaxy, and this was not only the first time they experienced something of that magnitude, but it also showed that we were simply not prepared at all for something like that, and I think we can see the ripples of that episode impact future captains and CMOs.
It may well be safe to argue that the Valakian incident is why Starfleet instituted General
Order 1. Up to that point, I think Archer’s attitude towards certain Vulcan recommendations like non-interference was likely shared by other captains and top brass, and it would take something big like being forced to decide between the survival of two developing species to change that thinking.
And that is surely why they wrote the episode. I still find it the worst of the episodes (except the stupid love episodes and the even worse last episode). And it is fair to point out that other series have worse plotlines. I still like Enterprise. I also still believe Phlox made the wrong call. But we will never agree on that.
That last episode would have been fine, if it weren't the last episode. It wasn't supposed to be the last one from my understanding. If Enterprise had gotten its fair seven seasons, I bet we would have seen the formative years of the Federation. There probably would have been another episode like the Valakians. They probably would have formally drafted General Order One. There may have been references and maybe flashbacks and a re-hash of first contact with the Valakians. They may have even gone back to that world to try to get the planet to join the Federation. It's a real shame that Enterprise ended the way that it did.
There are much greater forces at work than living beings. Nature progresses by trial and error, by success and failure. The stronger survive, the smarter survive. The Velokians had imperfections that made them not fit for this world. If Phlox would have given them the cure something else later on down the line would have saw to their extinction because they were not as fit for this world as the Menk were (would become). I absolutely loved that episode and feel the right decision was made and no one can convince me otherwise. Like he said, suppose someone came along and gave the Neanderthals an (my word) unbalanced advantage? Neanderthals were loaners. They found one fruit tree and guarded it with their lives. Cro-Magnons banded together like wolves and killed the Neanderthal and took his tree. Even if Cro-Magnon did not survive, the Neanderthal mentality would have seen them become extinct as well by the same means, only a different animal. Would that have happened, we would not have mankind at all. So that would have resulted in the extinction of all intelligent life, both species, not just one and a planet with no higher beings. Same story with the Velokians and Menk, just different circumstances
You could make the same argument for why Archer and Phlox should have helped them. The Valakians were smart enough to build space ships to find help. Or you could say that Phlox should have let all the Klingons die when they got sick. By your logic Shran should not have helped Archer with the Xindi. Why did a Denobulan and Vulcan agree to help a human ship? If you can help then you should help. Archer and Phlox could have helped both the Valakians and the Menk instead of purposefully chosing to help the Menk by not helping the Valakians. Given our current pandemic Archer and Phlox’s choice stands out even more as wrong. If a scientist or a country finds a cure for COVID-19 should that scientist or country hold back that cure only for themselves because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky enough to have found it? Should they decide who gets the cure and who does not? Or should they provide it to everyone?
You are taking about completely different things. In the Valakian/Menk situation you are talking about one intelligent species leapfrogging another. In all of your examples you are talking about the sole intelligent species on a planet. The arguments you make are apples to my oranges. No, I wouldn’t help the Valakians. Yes I would in your examples. And the Valakians May have been smart enough to build ships but they weren’t strong enough anatomically. You need both
And why doesn’t anyone ever look at it from the Menk perspective? They were treated like farm animals. Given food and communal housing in exchange for doing the hard labor and grunt work, through they were capable of much more. The Valakians could have came at them with swords or smiles, either way that is oppression. Being the Champion of the Weak I’m shock and quite frankly disappointed that doesn’t bother you. You would doom them to never being more than someone’s pet at the very least. Tyranny could very well have followed.
And why doesn’t anyone ever look at it from the Menk perspective? They were treated like farm animals. Given food and communal housing in exchange for doing the hard labor and grunt work, through they were capable of much more. The Valakians could have came at them with swords or smiles, either way that is oppression. Being the Champion of the Weak I’m shock and quite frankly disappointed that doesn’t bother you. You would doom them to never being more than someone’s pet at the very least. Tyranny could very well have followed.
I tend to look at it from the Menk perspective. I'm a pretty big freedom guy. The Menk were being oppressed. I have very little sympathy for oppressors. The Menk seemed to be the intellectually superior species. I tend to think that as the Valakians lost power, the Menk gained the ability to treat the ailment of the Valakians and the two found some balance and later joined the Federation. Maybe that's a little too sugary sweet, sunshine-and-rainbows, but a dude can dream.
And why doesn’t anyone ever look at it from the Menk perspective? They were treated like farm animals. Given food and communal housing in exchange for doing the hard labor and grunt work, through they were capable of much more. The Valakians could have came at them with swords or smiles, either way that is oppression. Being the Champion of the Weak I’m shock and quite frankly disappointed that doesn’t bother you. You would doom them to never being more than someone’s pet at the very least. Tyranny could very well have followed.
It has been a while since I watched the episode, but I don't think they had it as rough as you think. But I will cede the point. Let us do a thought experiment. Let us first assume that the advanced civilization does not find a cure or acquire one elsewhere. Let us further assume that the advanced species does not have anyone who has a mutation that lets them survive this (which is absurd that there would not be at least one male and one female left). Let us assume that the more advanced civilization dies. It does not follow that the less advanced civilization will grow. Since they have always been together, the odds are that the less advanced group will not know how to progress on their own and fail. But let us cede that point as well. Let us also assume that the more advanced civilization does not go out in some type of civil war that lays waste the planet--which would be a logical assumption. Let us further assume that this planet is well within the boundaries of what will become the Federation--a stretch because the Enterprise was operating in Klingon space, Romulan space, Xindi space, and generally far from home. This assumption means that no other species will find the newly emancipated species and assert their own control--and that is far more likely, but let us still assume it for this thought experiment. So we have given the Menk the best possible starting point. Now how long before they become what Phlox says they might? Look back through the five to ten thousand years of our own written history. Humans at the dawn of written history are just as intelligent (some historians believe more so) as we are, they just lacked the technology. The Menk not only lack the technology (though we assume they could salvage some from their former masters), they are far less intelligent. They would need at least ten thousand years (and that is being generous considering the length of time modern evolutionists put on these developments) to develop to the point of the humans or Valakians. Further, we are making the phenomenal stretch that an advanced Menk would be better to themselves and their planet than were the others. We are assuming that the newly evolved civilization would be a peaceful one that manages to not destroy themselves.
In order for the decision to doom the Valakians to be of any reasonable benefit to the Menk, we have to make some massive assumptions. And that is without getting into the question of right or wrong. And there is always (from a Darwinist perspective) another species who might be able to evolve. What would make it wrong for an alien species to come by and let all the humans die so that chimps could have the space needed to evolve?
And why doesn’t anyone ever look at it from the Menk perspective? They were treated like farm animals. Given food and communal housing in exchange for doing the hard labor and grunt work, through they were capable of much more. The Valakians could have came at them with swords or smiles, either way that is oppression. Being the Champion of the Weak I’m shock and quite frankly disappointed that doesn’t bother you. You would doom them to never being more than someone’s pet at the very least. Tyranny could very well have followed.
It has been a while since I watched the episode, but I don't think they had it as rough as you think. But I will cede the point. Let us do a thought experiment. Let us first assume that the advanced civilization does not find a cure or acquire one elsewhere. Let us further assume that the advanced species does not have anyone who has a mutation that lets them survive this (which is absurd that there would not be at least one male and one female left). Let us assume that the more advanced civilization dies. It does not follow that the less advanced civilization will grow. Since they have always been together, the odds are that the less advanced group will not know how to progress on their own and fail. But let us cede that point as well. Let us also assume that the more advanced civilization does not go out in some type of civil war that lays waste the planet--which would be a logical assumption. Let us further assume that this planet is well within the boundaries of what will become the Federation--a stretch because the Enterprise was operating in Klingon space, Romulan space, Xindi space, and generally far from home. This assumption means that no other species will find the newly emancipated species and assert their own control--and that is far more likely, but let us still assume it for this thought experiment. So we have given the Menk the best possible starting point. Now how long before they become what Phlox says they might? Look back through the five to ten thousand years of our own written history. Humans at the dawn of written history are just as intelligent (some historians believe more so) as we are, they just lacked the technology. The Menk not only lack the technology (though we assume they could salvage some from their former masters), they are far less intelligent. They would need at least ten thousand years (and that is being generous considering the length of time modern evolutionists put on these developments) to develop to the point of the humans or Valakians. Further, we are making the phenomenal stretch that an advanced Menk would be better to themselves and their planet than were the others. We are assuming that the newly evolved civilization would be a peaceful one that manages to not destroy themselves.
In order for the decision to doom the Valakians to be of any reasonable benefit to the Menk, we have to make some massive assumptions. And that is without getting into the question of right or wrong. And there is always (from a Darwinist perspective) another species who might be able to evolve. What would make it wrong for an alien species to come by and let all the humans die so that chimps could have the space needed to evolve?
None of those things have anything to do with the decision at hand. The Menk would not cease to survive without the Valakians. There are a number of species on our planet that are not even close to intelligent as the Menk. Lions survive without technology. As for someone else coming along and affecting what happens, again that has nothing to do with the decision at hand. That is out of Phlox’s hands
@DavideBooks, your point about the two species being symbiotic is a really interesting point, and one I had not considered, so gold star!
The point about how much time it might take the Menk to realize the potential Phlox sees in them is to me irrelevant, not to take a rude tone. To the grand ebb and flow of the universe, that time is but a blip. Think about the TNG episode "The Chase", where an ancient civilization spread their dna across multiple quadrants so that 250,000 years later or whatever it was their legacy would be preserved. That is the galactic scale of time, so if it took the Menk a few thousand years to progress, that does not to me seem out of order.
I also think it is important to state that Phlox did nothing to harm the Valakians, they were unchanged from their original state when Enterprise left. I understand why those of you upset with Phlox in this episode are against the decision to leave them that way, but I feel it is an important distinction to make, because the way people talk about him here it is like he lead them all inside a warehouse full of gasoline, lit a match, and locked them inside.
But the bottom line is, we have no way of knowing what became of the Valakians.
@DavideBooks, your point about the two species being symbiotic is a really interesting point, and one I had not considered, so gold star!
The point about how much time it might take the Menk to realize the potential Phlox sees in them is to me irrelevant, not to take a rude tone. To the grand ebb and flow of the universe, that time is but a blip. Think about the TNG episode "The Chase", where an ancient civilization spread their dna across multiple quadrants so that 250,000 years later or whatever it was their legacy would be preserved. That is the galactic scale of time, so if it took the Menk a few thousand years to progress, that does not to me seem out of order.
I also think it is important to state that Phlox did nothing to harm the Valakians, they were unchanged from their original state when Enterprise left. I understand why those of you upset with Phlox in this episode are against the decision to leave them that way, but I feel it is an important distinction to make, because the way people talk about him here it is like he lead them all inside a warehouse full of gasoline, lit a match, and locked them inside.
But the bottom line is, we have no way of knowing what became of the Valakians.
The obvious solution was given in the TNG episode “Up the Long Ladder.” Picard finds a healthy group of people with primitive technology and a sick group of clones with advanced technology. Picard gets the two groups to live together in harmony and help each other. Instead the Enterprise writers rewrote that episode to force in a Prime Directive storyline. There was harm done by the Enterprise crew though. By responding to the Valakians’ distress call the Enterprise prevented others who may have responded. Others that saw they were being helped and moved on. The Enterprise did not help and refused to give the Valakians technology to find others who could help. The Enterprise could have helped the Valakians and the Menk and got them to work together better. Curing the Valakians with the help of the Menk and telling the Valakians may have been enough on its own to transform society and give the Menk equal footing. Phlox and Archer made a flawed assumption that the death of the Valakians would not kill or harm the Menk. Were there nuclear power plants that would have melted down without people maintaining them? What of power lines and fires they cause when left unchecked? What about the last actions of a dying people that may be unpredictable and cause huge harm. What if the Valakians tried genetic engineering and caused a virus? What if the last Valakian went Charlton Heston from the Planet of the Apes movies and intentionally blew the Menk all up?
@DavideBooks, your point about the two species being symbiotic is a really interesting point, and one I had not considered, so gold star!
The point about how much time it might take the Menk to realize the potential Phlox sees in them is to me irrelevant, not to take a rude tone. To the grand ebb and flow of the universe, that time is but a blip. Think about the TNG episode "The Chase", where an ancient civilization spread their dna across multiple quadrants so that 250,000 years later or whatever it was their legacy would be preserved. That is the galactic scale of time, so if it took the Menk a few thousand years to progress, that does not to me seem out of order.
I also think it is important to state that Phlox did nothing to harm the Valakians, they were unchanged from their original state when Enterprise left. I understand why those of you upset with Phlox in this episode are against the decision to leave them that way, but I feel it is an important distinction to make, because the way people talk about him here it is like he lead them all inside a warehouse full of gasoline, lit a match, and locked them inside.
But the bottom line is, we have no way of knowing what became of the Valakians.
The obvious solution was given in the TNG episode “Up the Long Ladder.” Picard finds a healthy group of people with primitive technology and a sick group of clones with advanced technology. Picard gets the two groups to live together in harmony and help each other. Instead the Enterprise writers rewrote that episode to force in a Prime Directive storyline. There was harm done by the Enterprise crew though. By responding to the Valakians’ distress call the Enterprise prevented others who may have responded. Others that saw they were being helped and moved on. The Enterprise did not help and refused to give the Valakians technology to find others who could help. The Enterprise could have helped the Valakians and the Menk and got them to work together better. Curing the Valakians with the help of the Menk and telling the Valakians may have been enough on its own to transform society and give the Menk equal footing. Phlox and Archer made a flawed assumption that the death of the Valakians would not kill or harm the Menk. Were there nuclear power plants that would have melted down without people maintaining them? What of power lines and fires they cause when left unchecked? What about the last actions of a dying people that may be unpredictable and cause huge harm. What if the Valakians tried genetic engineering and caused a virus? What if the last Valakian went Charlton Heston from the Planet of the Apes movies and intentionally blew the Menk all up?
What you are saying is the Valakians would have all instantly died as soon as the Enterprise left. That’s a weak argument. The process is gradual. The nuclear power plants would be shut down before meltdown. If the Valakians created a virus trying for a cure that’s on them. None of the things you mentioned could have been attributed to Phlox’s decision or are not even valid
@DavideBooks, your point about the two species being symbiotic is a really interesting point, and one I had not considered, so gold star!
The point about how much time it might take the Menk to realize the potential Phlox sees in them is to me irrelevant, not to take a rude tone. To the grand ebb and flow of the universe, that time is but a blip. Think about the TNG episode "The Chase", where an ancient civilization spread their dna across multiple quadrants so that 250,000 years later or whatever it was their legacy would be preserved. That is the galactic scale of time, so if it took the Menk a few thousand years to progress, that does not to me seem out of order.
I also think it is important to state that Phlox did nothing to harm the Valakians, they were unchanged from their original state when Enterprise left. I understand why those of you upset with Phlox in this episode are against the decision to leave them that way, but I feel it is an important distinction to make, because the way people talk about him here it is like he lead them all inside a warehouse full of gasoline, lit a match, and locked them inside.
But the bottom line is, we have no way of knowing what became of the Valakians.
The obvious solution was given in the TNG episode “Up the Long Ladder.” Picard finds a healthy group of people with primitive technology and a sick group of clones with advanced technology. Picard gets the two groups to live together in harmony and help each other. Instead the Enterprise writers rewrote that episode to force in a Prime Directive storyline. There was harm done by the Enterprise crew though. By responding to the Valakians’ distress call the Enterprise prevented others who may have responded. Others that saw they were being helped and moved on. The Enterprise did not help and refused to give the Valakians technology to find others who could help. The Enterprise could have helped the Valakians and the Menk and got them to work together better. Curing the Valakians with the help of the Menk and telling the Valakians may have been enough on its own to transform society and give the Menk equal footing. Phlox and Archer made a flawed assumption that the death of the Valakians would not kill or harm the Menk. Were there nuclear power plants that would have melted down without people maintaining them? What of power lines and fires they cause when left unchecked? What about the last actions of a dying people that may be unpredictable and cause huge harm. What if the Valakians tried genetic engineering and caused a virus? What if the last Valakian went Charlton Heston from the Planet of the Apes movies and intentionally blew the Menk all up?
What if the Enterprise cured the disease and the Valakians continued to oppress the Menk? That seems like the most likely outcome. Maybe humanity had to make a few tough choices. Maybe Picard didn't achieve that level of success every time. Maybe Picard's early years - before commanding the Enterprise - looked more like what we saw Archer do on Enterprise. I know that Sisko and Janeway made some questionable decisions. That could even be the point of the episode: to make the viewer question the decision.
Not that it's as far off-topic as some of our threads get — I mean, at least the conversation is still about Trek, lol — but this is a lot of posts in a row that have nothing to do with the event. Maybe y'all can continue this discussion in the Strange New Worlds sub-forum?
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing. ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
And as was brought up to me earlier, if everyone was so concerned about it why didn’t Picard or anyone else stop by for a visit later and check things out? Picard was what? 300 years after Archer? Shame on Picard!
And as was brought up to me earlier, if everyone was so concerned about it why didn’t Picard or anyone else stop by for a visit later and check things out? Picard was what? 300 years after Archer? Shame on Picard!
Comments
I haven't seen it for a bit, either. But I thought the conflict was Archer wanted them saved, and Phlox argued for natural selection. Could be the other way, though. Interfering with nature was usually more Archer and other Humans.
EDIT: Forgot Beverly. She killed Troi, at least for a little while, to break the connection between Lot Lizard Troi and that ambassador.......
That’s how I remember it too, but ultimately I think it was Archers decision in the end.
This is absolutely not true, Phlox did not commit genocide. Show us the bodies.
McCoy didn’t kill Gorkon.....
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It was much more extinction by inaction. I will allow that, for sure.
Yeah, Archer had to make the final call. He did need to be led to it, though. IIRC
Any surgeon that works on the heart stops it to work on it.
They would have seen the bodies but Enterprise never cared to go back and check on the Valakians from the Dear Doctor episode. Phlox found a cure and refused to give it to them because Phlox and Archer believed the Menk on the planet would take over given an opportunity. The Valakians very likely all died. But even if the Valakians had somehow miraculously found a cure on their own or from someone else many would have died or been irreparably harmed in the meantime. Enterprise could have stayed longer to find a way to help the Menk on the planet while also helping the Valakians but Archer was too eager to go exploring to care. My least favorite trek episode and the reason I stopped watching Enterprise for many years.
Hero Doctor and brave, one-eyed Nurse treat man with facial deformities. 1946, Colorized.
We know for certain people died that would have been saved by Phlox’s cure. The question is how many. I believe the Enterprise was the first ship to help after their call of help had been generally ignored by two other groups. As Archer refused to give them the cure or warp technology so they could find others to help I think it highly likely they all died.
You could make the same argument for why Archer and Phlox should have helped them. The Valakians were smart enough to build space ships to find help. Or you could say that Phlox should have let all the Klingons die when they got sick. By your logic Shran should not have helped Archer with the Xindi. Why did a Denobulan and Vulcan agree to help a human ship? If you can help then you should help. Archer and Phlox could have helped both the Valakians and the Menk instead of purposefully chosing to help the Menk by not helping the Valakians. Given our current pandemic Archer and Phlox’s choice stands out even more as wrong. If a scientist or a country finds a cure for COVID-19 should that scientist or country hold back that cure only for themselves because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky enough to have found it? Should they decide who gets the cure and who does not? Or should they provide it to everyone?
No one wants to scald the hawgs........
You made some great points, and I appreciate the shift/pivot in the discussion, because those are all valid points that are great to discuss/debate. And if I may, I also appreciate you walking back the proclamation of a commission of genocide.
I think that episode was very important for a lot of reasons, but one I never lose sight of when enjoying Enterprise is that this was humanity's first exploration of the galaxy, and this was not only the first time they experienced something of that magnitude, but it also showed that we were simply not prepared at all for something like that, and I think we can see the ripples of that episode impact future captains and CMOs.
It may well be safe to argue that the Valakian incident is why Starfleet instituted General
Order 1. Up to that point, I think Archer’s attitude towards certain Vulcan recommendations like non-interference was likely shared by other captains and top brass, and it would take something big like being forced to decide between the survival of two developing species to change that thinking.
And that is surely why they wrote the episode. I still find it the worst of the episodes (except the stupid love episodes and the even worse last episode). And it is fair to point out that other series have worse plotlines. I still like Enterprise. I also still believe Phlox made the wrong call. But we will never agree on that.
That last episode would have been fine, if it weren't the last episode. It wasn't supposed to be the last one from my understanding. If Enterprise had gotten its fair seven seasons, I bet we would have seen the formative years of the Federation. There probably would have been another episode like the Valakians. They probably would have formally drafted General Order One. There may have been references and maybe flashbacks and a re-hash of first contact with the Valakians. They may have even gone back to that world to try to get the planet to join the Federation. It's a real shame that Enterprise ended the way that it did.
You are taking about completely different things. In the Valakian/Menk situation you are talking about one intelligent species leapfrogging another. In all of your examples you are talking about the sole intelligent species on a planet. The arguments you make are apples to my oranges. No, I wouldn’t help the Valakians. Yes I would in your examples. And the Valakians May have been smart enough to build ships but they weren’t strong enough anatomically. You need both
I tend to look at it from the Menk perspective. I'm a pretty big freedom guy. The Menk were being oppressed. I have very little sympathy for oppressors. The Menk seemed to be the intellectually superior species. I tend to think that as the Valakians lost power, the Menk gained the ability to treat the ailment of the Valakians and the two found some balance and later joined the Federation. Maybe that's a little too sugary sweet, sunshine-and-rainbows, but a dude can dream.
It has been a while since I watched the episode, but I don't think they had it as rough as you think. But I will cede the point. Let us do a thought experiment. Let us first assume that the advanced civilization does not find a cure or acquire one elsewhere. Let us further assume that the advanced species does not have anyone who has a mutation that lets them survive this (which is absurd that there would not be at least one male and one female left). Let us assume that the more advanced civilization dies. It does not follow that the less advanced civilization will grow. Since they have always been together, the odds are that the less advanced group will not know how to progress on their own and fail. But let us cede that point as well. Let us also assume that the more advanced civilization does not go out in some type of civil war that lays waste the planet--which would be a logical assumption. Let us further assume that this planet is well within the boundaries of what will become the Federation--a stretch because the Enterprise was operating in Klingon space, Romulan space, Xindi space, and generally far from home. This assumption means that no other species will find the newly emancipated species and assert their own control--and that is far more likely, but let us still assume it for this thought experiment. So we have given the Menk the best possible starting point. Now how long before they become what Phlox says they might? Look back through the five to ten thousand years of our own written history. Humans at the dawn of written history are just as intelligent (some historians believe more so) as we are, they just lacked the technology. The Menk not only lack the technology (though we assume they could salvage some from their former masters), they are far less intelligent. They would need at least ten thousand years (and that is being generous considering the length of time modern evolutionists put on these developments) to develop to the point of the humans or Valakians. Further, we are making the phenomenal stretch that an advanced Menk would be better to themselves and their planet than were the others. We are assuming that the newly evolved civilization would be a peaceful one that manages to not destroy themselves.
In order for the decision to doom the Valakians to be of any reasonable benefit to the Menk, we have to make some massive assumptions. And that is without getting into the question of right or wrong. And there is always (from a Darwinist perspective) another species who might be able to evolve. What would make it wrong for an alien species to come by and let all the humans die so that chimps could have the space needed to evolve?
None of those things have anything to do with the decision at hand. The Menk would not cease to survive without the Valakians. There are a number of species on our planet that are not even close to intelligent as the Menk. Lions survive without technology. As for someone else coming along and affecting what happens, again that has nothing to do with the decision at hand. That is out of Phlox’s hands
The point about how much time it might take the Menk to realize the potential Phlox sees in them is to me irrelevant, not to take a rude tone. To the grand ebb and flow of the universe, that time is but a blip. Think about the TNG episode "The Chase", where an ancient civilization spread their dna across multiple quadrants so that 250,000 years later or whatever it was their legacy would be preserved. That is the galactic scale of time, so if it took the Menk a few thousand years to progress, that does not to me seem out of order.
I also think it is important to state that Phlox did nothing to harm the Valakians, they were unchanged from their original state when Enterprise left. I understand why those of you upset with Phlox in this episode are against the decision to leave them that way, but I feel it is an important distinction to make, because the way people talk about him here it is like he lead them all inside a warehouse full of gasoline, lit a match, and locked them inside.
But the bottom line is, we have no way of knowing what became of the Valakians.
The obvious solution was given in the TNG episode “Up the Long Ladder.” Picard finds a healthy group of people with primitive technology and a sick group of clones with advanced technology. Picard gets the two groups to live together in harmony and help each other. Instead the Enterprise writers rewrote that episode to force in a Prime Directive storyline. There was harm done by the Enterprise crew though. By responding to the Valakians’ distress call the Enterprise prevented others who may have responded. Others that saw they were being helped and moved on. The Enterprise did not help and refused to give the Valakians technology to find others who could help. The Enterprise could have helped the Valakians and the Menk and got them to work together better. Curing the Valakians with the help of the Menk and telling the Valakians may have been enough on its own to transform society and give the Menk equal footing. Phlox and Archer made a flawed assumption that the death of the Valakians would not kill or harm the Menk. Were there nuclear power plants that would have melted down without people maintaining them? What of power lines and fires they cause when left unchecked? What about the last actions of a dying people that may be unpredictable and cause huge harm. What if the Valakians tried genetic engineering and caused a virus? What if the last Valakian went Charlton Heston from the Planet of the Apes movies and intentionally blew the Menk all up?
What you are saying is the Valakians would have all instantly died as soon as the Enterprise left. That’s a weak argument. The process is gradual. The nuclear power plants would be shut down before meltdown. If the Valakians created a virus trying for a cure that’s on them. None of the things you mentioned could have been attributed to Phlox’s decision or are not even valid
What if the Enterprise cured the disease and the Valakians continued to oppress the Menk? That seems like the most likely outcome. Maybe humanity had to make a few tough choices. Maybe Picard didn't achieve that level of success every time. Maybe Picard's early years - before commanding the Enterprise - looked more like what we saw Archer do on Enterprise. I know that Sisko and Janeway made some questionable decisions. That could even be the point of the episode: to make the viewer question the decision.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
And also shame on... anyone else!