One more thing:
STT needs licences from CBS and in many cases individual actors. Without these the game can not exist.
Star trek is/was well known for its progressiveness and many actors are known to be concerned with social issues.
Associating with a controvercial company which is under fire for privacy concerns might very well put future licences at risk.
I wonder if this association was discussed with CBS.
I'm afraid you'll find Star Trek's creators and custodians have not always lived up to the lofty ideals they make their money by espousing. Without meaning to disparage Timelines, it's fair to say this game is likely not a critical part of CBS's bottom line. The backlash among the forum members isn't unanimous, and forum members are only a tiny percentage of the overall player base in the first place.
You're welcome to try to recruit some of those actors who promote idealism over capitalism, though. Over at GalaxyCon, they're selling two minute one-on-one video chats. If you can wait another week, Robert Picardo, Tim Russ, and Garrett Wang only charge $55 apiece for those chats. But if you want to start sooner, you can make the case to William Shatner this very afternoon at 2:15 EST for $245. If you think you can persuade him in one minute, you can save $100 and wait until 3:00. Fair warning, though, his public video panel starts at 1:00 and he's bound to be losing his concentration by then.
Thanks, Shan. I play a lot of other games with offer walls (including Kim Kardashian's fashion game - don't hate me), and noticed that they're all survey offers on iOS now. Those games have kept the offer wall in place, fwiw, so I doubt DBTPWRG were skirting any illegal issues by opting to remove it.
I mean, Kim K trusts it, and if we can't trust Kimye, who can we?
Please know this comes with all the love and respect I have to give:
I was holding off on further comments until I could finish processing everything. I haven't, but the recent removal from iOS prompts some response.
1. Well done. From the moment the wall went live, players were repoting potential scams. It only took 2 and a half weeks to pull the plug, but there is still a way to go. (There was a Hassleoff concert, but theres still alot of dumptruck loads of cement fragements that need to be hauled out)
2. Questions regarding privacy concerns still have not been adequately adressed.
3. I am still logging in to the game for the sake of my fleet, but spending, ad warps, etc are still on ice. I also, for the first time in four years, not motivated to at least get thresholds in events.
I was holding off on further comments until I could finish processing everything. I haven't, but the recent removal from iOS prompts some response.
1. Well done. From the moment the wall went live, players were repoting potential scams. It only took 2 and a half weeks to pull the plug, but there is still a way to go. (There was a Hassleoff concert, but theres still alot of dumptruck loads of cement fragements that need to be hauled out)
2. Questions regarding privacy concerns still have not been adequately adressed.
3. I am still logging in to the game for the sake of my fleet, but spending, ad warps, etc are still on ice. I also, for the first time in four years, not motivated to at least get thresholds in events.
The problem with #1, is that their response is a little too only because they are violating a rule on one platform thing. It only affected certain platforms. Platforms that had rules against what the MalWall does......
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
I was holding off on further comments until I could finish processing everything. I haven't, but the recent removal from iOS prompts some response.
1. Well done. From the moment the wall went live, players were repoting potential scams. It only took 2 and a half weeks to pull the plug, but there is still a way to go. (There was a Hassleoff concert, but theres still alot of dumptruck loads of cement fragements that need to be hauled out)
2. Questions regarding privacy concerns still have not been adequately adressed.
3. I am still logging in to the game for the sake of my fleet, but spending, ad warps, etc are still on ice. I also, for the first time in four years, not motivated to at least get thresholds in events.
The problem with #1, is that their response is a little too "Emancipation Proclamation". It only affected certain platforms. Platforms that had rules against what the MalWall does......
I applaud you for knowing that the Emancipation Proclamation was restricted to liberating enslaved people in Union occupied Confederate states but man, oh man, do I cringe at your application of that knowledge in this context.
I was holding off on further comments until I could finish processing everything. I haven't, but the recent removal from iOS prompts some response.
1. Well done. From the moment the wall went live, players were repoting potential scams. It only took 2 and a half weeks to pull the plug, but there is still a way to go. (There was a Hassleoff concert, but theres still alot of dumptruck loads of cement fragements that need to be hauled out)
2. Questions regarding privacy concerns still have not been adequately adressed.
3. I am still logging in to the game for the sake of my fleet, but spending, ad warps, etc are still on ice. I also, for the first time in four years, not motivated to at least get thresholds in events.
The problem with #1, is that their response is a little too "Emancipation Proclamation". It only affected certain platforms. Platforms that had rules against what the MalWall does......
I applaud you for knowing that the Emancipation Proclamation was restricted to liberating enslaved people in Union occupied Confederate states but man, oh man, do I cringe at your application of that knowledge in this context.
Well, it was the first example to pop into mind. I can edit.....
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
I was holding off on further comments until I could finish processing everything. I haven't, but the recent removal from iOS prompts some response.
1. Well done. From the moment the wall went live, players were repoting potential scams. It only took 2 and a half weeks to pull the plug, but there is still a way to go. (There was a Hassleoff concert, but theres still alot of dumptruck loads of cement fragements that need to be hauled out)
2. Questions regarding privacy concerns still have not been adequately adressed.
3. I am still logging in to the game for the sake of my fleet, but spending, ad warps, etc are still on ice. I also, for the first time in four years, not motivated to at least get thresholds in events.
The problem with #1, is that their response is a little too "Emancipation Proclamation". It only affected certain platforms. Platforms that had rules against what the MalWall does......
I applaud you for knowing that the Emancipation Proclamation was restricted to liberating enslaved people in Union occupied Confederate states but man, oh man, do I cringe at your application of that knowledge in this context.
Well, it was the first example to pop into mind. I can edit.....
Oh, no edit necessary! I didn't mean to come off as critiquing or attacking. It was just that thing where you chuckle and shake your head at something unorthodox but surprising.
It seems a lot of people here have taken the route of complacency with this already (not really surprised, people are predictable) and have accepted the paltry excuses and placation offered by Shan/TP, but the issue still stands as such:
The offer wall is a toxic horror of privacy violation regardless of whether or not you have graciously decided not to involuntarily feed it our data whether we use it or not. The fact still stands that in order to actually use the offer wall you are required to give up copious amounts of information just to complete most of the offers and that isn't including whatever data those 3rd party websites are able to scrape from you and your device simply by visiting them. And we're supposed to kowtow to your benevolence by providing a simple mask in the face of a deadly plague. (The analogy is apt and terrifying.)
It's the level of disdain that TP/WRG has for the players to put in a doorway leading to a lair of horrors and then saying "well, we did put in a door so that you can go in voluntarily" that has people like me still recoiling and still disgusted by the inclusion of the offer wall. It's a purely evil move motivated by nothing more than profit at whatever cost. It's a step that even DB was unwilling to take. That speaks pretty loudly to how horrible the inclusion of this sick "feature" is.
It seems a lot of people here have taken the route of complacency with this already (not really surprised, people are predictable) and have accepted the paltry excuses and placation offered by Shan/TP, but the issue still stands as such:
The offer wall is a toxic horror of privacy violation regardless of whether or not you have graciously decided not to involuntarily feed it our data whether we use it or not. The fact still stands that in order to actually use the offer wall you are required to give up copious amounts of information just to complete most of the offers and that isn't including whatever data those 3rd party websites are able to scrape from you and your device simply by visiting them. And we're supposed to kowtow to your benevolence by providing a simple mask in the face of a deadly plague. (The analogy is apt and terrifying.)
It's the level of disdain that TP/WRG has for the players to put in a doorway leading to a lair of horrors and then saying "well, we did put in a door so that you can go in voluntarily" that has people like me still recoiling and still disgusted by the inclusion of the offer wall. It's a purely evil move motivated by nothing more than profit at whatever cost. It's a step that even DB was unwilling to take. That speaks pretty loudly to how horrible the inclusion of this sick "feature" is.
Never ascribe to malice, that which is as easily explainable by incompetence. DB in many ways was incompetent (sending a mass email to all users is a wow moment). It appears that TP is also incompetent. I doubt TP even thought about these matters prior to users bring them up (I suspect, like many American companies, they are focused on surviving today rather than survival in the long term).
Never ascribe to malice, that which is as easily explainable by incompetence.
That quote is a copout at best. After the backlash, attempt at placation, and additional backlash, if it was simple incompetence the the offer wall would have been removed and apologies all around. That didn't happen, so we're past the incompetence excuse.
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Never ascribe to malice, that which is as easily explainable by incompetence.
That quote is a copout at best. After the backlash, attempt at placation, and additional backlash, if it was simple incompetence the the offer wall would have been removed and apologies all around. That didn't happen, so we're past the incompetence excuse.
It doesn't restore my trust if TP's failure to notify us of changes to the TOS was due to incompetence rather than malice. That's not an acceptable "whoopsie." It would trouble me even if it wasn't associated with something dubious, though I know I'm less forgiving of it under these circumstances.
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
I don't see your point other than making a bad joke about money.
Yes, money was a factor. It may shock you to hear this, but money is a factor in everything a company does. TP didn't add the offer wall so they could give us free DIL. They added the offer wall because IronSource offered TP money for every offer a user completes. That also means that the surveys offering very little DIL were likely generating very little dollars for TP. But the game downloads on Android are probably generating a lot more dollars for TP which is why they offer a lot more DIL in the game and are still present.
None of that changes the fact that the Offer Wall was not in violation of Apple's TOS.
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
It still smacks of spin, but I'll take it at face value.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Which brings me back to questioning how much trust I feel confident placing in TP even if it is only a matter of inattentiveness.
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
I don't see your point other than making a bad joke about money.
Yes, money was a factor. It may shock you to hear this, but money is a factor in everything a company does. TP didn't add the offer wall so they could give us free DIL. They added the offer wall because IronSource offered TP money for every offer a user completes. That also means that the surveys offering very little DIL were likely generating very little dollars for TP. But the game downloads on Android are probably generating a lot more dollars for TP which is why they offer a lot more DIL in the game and are still present.
None of that changes the fact that the Offer Wall was not in violation of Apple's TOS.
Of course money is a factor. If you do not want to accept that it is looking more and more like it was the only factor, that is on you. But, don't expect everyone to agree with you.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
I don't see your point other than making a bad joke about money.
Yes, money was a factor. It may shock you to hear this, but money is a factor in everything a company does. TP didn't add the offer wall so they could give us free DIL. They added the offer wall because IronSource offered TP money for every offer a user completes. That also means that the surveys offering very little DIL were likely generating very little dollars for TP. But the game downloads on Android are probably generating a lot more dollars for TP which is why they offer a lot more DIL in the game and are still present.
None of that changes the fact that the Offer Wall was not in violation of Apple's TOS.
Of course money is a factor. If you do not want to accept that it is looking more and more like it was the only factor, that is on you. But, don't expect everyone to agree with you.
Of course it was the only factor. I don't know why you're acting surprised. Why would a game company encourage its players to try out other games that potentially could steal their attention and dollars? Why would a game company encourage its users to spend time outside the game filling out a survey for another company? Because they're getting paid to do that. The Offer Wall was added to generate revenue for TP, pure and simple. They've now decided the revenue is not worth the hassle an potential loss of players on iOS. I really don't know what point you're trying to make.
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
I don't see your point other than making a bad joke about money.
Yes, money was a factor. It may shock you to hear this, but money is a factor in everything a company does. TP didn't add the offer wall so they could give us free DIL. They added the offer wall because IronSource offered TP money for every offer a user completes. That also means that the surveys offering very little DIL were likely generating very little dollars for TP. But the game downloads on Android are probably generating a lot more dollars for TP which is why they offer a lot more DIL in the game and are still present.
None of that changes the fact that the Offer Wall was not in violation of Apple's TOS.
Of course money is a factor. If you do not want to accept that it is looking more and more like it was the only factor, that is on you. But, don't expect everyone to agree with you.
It may be more constructive not to get hung up on the issue of "what" (trying to get more money). They aren't running an organization dedicated to helping the disadvantaged or saving the planet. They run an entertainment biz. There's no deception on that score.
It's the "how" where I would direct our (and their) attention: Not chasing that dollar responsibly (not looking more into ironSource and asking them the self-evident questions we've now asked) or respectfully (taking the decision of whether to play with The Wall out of our hands by not being forthright about all this before implementing it).
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
I don't see your point other than making a bad joke about money.
Yes, money was a factor. It may shock you to hear this, but money is a factor in everything a company does. TP didn't add the offer wall so they could give us free DIL. They added the offer wall because IronSource offered TP money for every offer a user completes. That also means that the surveys offering very little DIL were likely generating very little dollars for TP. But the game downloads on Android are probably generating a lot more dollars for TP which is why they offer a lot more DIL in the game and are still present.
None of that changes the fact that the Offer Wall was not in violation of Apple's TOS.
Of course money is a factor. If you do not want to accept that it is looking more and more like it was the only factor, that is on you. But, don't expect everyone to agree with you.
Of course it was the only factor. I don't know why you're acting surprised. Why would a game company encourage its players to try out other games that potentially could steal their attention and dollars? Why would a game company encourage its users to spend time outside the game filling out a survey for another company? Because they're getting paid to do that. The Offer Wall was added to generate revenue for TP, pure and simple. They've now decided the revenue is not worth the hassle an potential loss of players on iOS. I really don't know what point you're trying to make.
I’ll throw out there that I imagine allowing Timelines users to try out other games is one way of a two-way street - STT shows up in the offer walls of other games and drives engagement from a new source of potential customers.
There are two ways to boost revenues: get more spending dollars from your existing user base and get a bigger user base. If you wanted to be real thorough, there are three ways to boost income: those two things above and cutting costs. Everything we’ve seen suggests that TP isn’t engaging in cost-cutting measures (like DB did after the abject failure of the Walking Dead game), so they are focused on bringing in more revenue.
The calculus (hopefully) done by TP when considering the introduction of the Offer Wall determined that spending from new users plus added revenue from IronSource’s other Wall features would offset revenue lost from disgruntled existing users. For iOS, there were no new users being brought in from other games and I imagine people wisely stayed away from the awful surveys in large numbers - meaning that there was nothing against which to balance the loss of revenue from existing players.
Never ascribe to malice, that which is as easily explainable by incompetence.
That quote is a copout at best. After the backlash, attempt at placation, and additional backlash, if it was simple incompetence the the offer wall would have been removed and apologies all around. That didn't happen, so we're past the incompetence excuse.
It doesn't restore my trust if TP's failure to notify us of changes to the TOS was due to incompetence rather than malice. That's not an acceptable "whoopsie." It would trouble me even if it wasn't associated with something dubious, though I know I'm less forgiving of it under these circumstances.
I think that’s totally fair. My guess is that TP just realized that they are very exposed legally and are trying to figure out how they can best mitigate it. They seem to have failed to undertake proper due diligence and now they have had to reverse course to some extent.
In all that, note that TP getting more money out of STT probably would mean TP spending more money on work to make STT even better (which hopefully grows the user base, makes more money, etc.) - at least that is the usual reasoning I have seen in IT companies (haven't seen into the gaming sector yet though).
Still, I have stopped paying any money for anything in STT (including monthly cards, which I had continuously since the game launch) until this Offer Wall vs. privacy issue is cleared up.
Not completely sure if making them even more dependent on money sources outside of direct pay by players is the best signal, but not spending money as long as it's unclear how much privacy I give up just by playing the game is something that hopefully is a sign.
"Don't try to be a great man... just be a man. Let history make its own judgments." -- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073
Never ascribe to malice, that which is as easily explainable by incompetence.
That quote is a copout at best. After the backlash, attempt at placation, and additional backlash, if it was simple incompetence the the offer wall would have been removed and apologies all around. That didn't happen, so we're past the incompetence excuse.
It doesn't restore my trust if TP's failure to notify us of changes to the TOS was due to incompetence rather than malice. That's not an acceptable "whoopsie." It would trouble me even if it wasn't associated with something dubious, though I know I'm less forgiving of it under these circumstances.
Given that the way TP have modified the TOS - without notifying us or getting any kind of consent - is against the law in multiple countries, then I believe the correct term is "criminal negligence" rather than incompetence. If it was a deliberate act then you can simply drop the word "negligence".
I began to do one of the offers and it was asking for my first born so after they had a lot of my information, I stopped. It was also taking time away from my game play. The offer was for some dilithium but the amount was minuscule, while the time and amount of personal information it was asking for was completely disproportionate to the reward. That was the end of the offer wall for me - totally not worth it.
Let me clarify what we meant regarding Apple Guidelines.
As many of you have noticed, on Android a lot of the OW offers are about games, which is great.
Unfortunately presenting offers for games is not something Apple allows anymore, those are the guidelines we are referring to in our message.
I hope this frames the context better
Did Apple allow them when The Wall went live?
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
I don't see your point other than making a bad joke about money.
Yes, money was a factor. It may shock you to hear this, but money is a factor in everything a company does. TP didn't add the offer wall so they could give us free DIL. They added the offer wall because IronSource offered TP money for every offer a user completes. That also means that the surveys offering very little DIL were likely generating very little dollars for TP. But the game downloads on Android are probably generating a lot more dollars for TP which is why they offer a lot more DIL in the game and are still present.
None of that changes the fact that the Offer Wall was not in violation of Apple's TOS.
Of course money is a factor. If you do not want to accept that it is looking more and more like it was the only factor, that is on you. But, don't expect everyone to agree with you.
It may be more constructive not to get hung up on the issue of "what" (trying to get more money). They aren't running an organization dedicated to helping the disadvantaged or saving the planet. They run an entertainment biz. There's no deception on that score.
It's the "how" where I would direct our (and their) attention: Not chasing that dollar responsibly (not looking more into ironSource and asking them the self-evident questions we've now asked) or respectfully (taking the decision of whether to play with The Wall out of our hands by not being forthright about all this before implementing it).
I think people are missing what I meant. The "how" is what I am talking about. It took players a!most no time to find out about IronSource's "reputation". Which implies either the company forgot to do due diligence, which is bad. Or they either did do due diligence, and ignored the company's "reputation". Or did not do due diligence because they were indifferent to the company's "reputation". Those two are both worse than forgetting to do it. At least to me.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, regardless of what side of the issue they fall on.......
No animosity here for anyone. And I hope I did not cause anyone to feel any towards me.......
🖖🏿🖖🏽🖖🏼🖖🏻🖖
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Never ascribe to malice, that which is as easily explainable by incompetence.
That quote is a copout at best. After the backlash, attempt at placation, and additional backlash, if it was simple incompetence the the offer wall would have been removed and apologies all around. That didn't happen, so we're past the incompetence excuse.
It doesn't restore my trust if TP's failure to notify us of changes to the TOS was due to incompetence rather than malice. That's not an acceptable "whoopsie." It would trouble me even if it wasn't associated with something dubious, though I know I'm less forgiving of it under these circumstances.
I think that’s totally fair. My guess is that TP just realized that they are very exposed legally and are trying to figure out how they can best mitigate it. They seem to have failed to undertake proper due diligence and now they have had to reverse course to some extent.
THIS! This is exactly what is going on!
No statement to their users tells me they've realized they made a huge (legal) mistake. Withholding requested information from their users tells me they're trying to find the best appeasing way to cover it up without damaging losses to their accounts. And withdrawing the OfferWall from iOS tells me they're looking for any and all loopholes to cancel out of any deal they made with IronSource.
At this point, I'm here to see what the final excuses will be.... But I'm guessing I'll be joining many of you in a class action lawsuit for violating TOS and endangering personal information.
Thing that really irks me, implementing something like the offer wall securely isn't difficult.
The most data* that needs leaking is your DBID, and you only need that if you're unwilling to generate one-time tokens that are associated with the DBID so keeping ownership of player data purely under TP/WRG control, and is the most secure method as not even your game id is leaked out then.
I know some people don't like the concept of the offer wall, and it is cheap and tacky IMO, but if it is implemented so our data isn't flowing out to IronSource without our consent (e.g. clicking on the offer wall and click I agree, yadda, yadda, yadda, first time) I don't see the problem with ignoring it.
Now, I've stated I'm happy for them to take their time to get it right, but this is dragging now. This shouldn't be so hard to tell the community, instead it just makes TP/WRG look dodgy and thoughtless.
*This is assuming IronSource make their income from taking a cut from the games, not from monetising our data.
Still, I have stopped paying any money for anything in STT (including monthly cards, which I had continuously since the game launch) until this Offer Wall vs. privacy issue is cleared up.
And after reading both the new ToS and Privacy Policy, I consider the issue itself cleared up enough for myself as someone who hasn't even looked at the Offer Wall. If the offers presented there are morally OK is something I can't make a statement on as I do not look at the whole thing. I'm hopeful that it shows up in data they are monitoring when I do not open the Offer Wall but instead pay for a Monthly Card.
From my software development experience, if you want the Offer Wall to be kicked out, you need to make sure very few people actually use it, lack of usage is the best sign in data to remove something. If you want IronSource out completely, also make sure people don't watch any in-game ads.
"Don't try to be a great man... just be a man. Let history make its own judgments." -- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073
So the wall is gone on iOS. Shan, what has been removed? The button, the SDK? What is the status of our data today compared to before the wall was introduced?
For those unlucky ones of us who did a survey: Can Ironsource still access our data somehow through the fact that STT is installed, other than the minimum dataset required for watching and rewarding ads?
That first paragraph is the $64,000 Question for iOS players. Let me not just quote that, but repeat it in bold, in the hope that Shan sees it and can get an answer for us:
So the wall is gone on iOS. Shan, what has been removed? The button, the SDK? What is the status of our data today compared to before the wall was introduced?
Is the Ironsource SDK (and thus, auto-data-harvesting-malware) still part of STT on iOS, or has it been completely removed? Please, please,please answer!
Is the Ironsource SDK (and thus, auto-data-harvesting-malware) still part of STT on iOS, or has it been completely removed? Please, please,please answer!
AFAIK it was part of the app before the Offer Wall and it probably still is now, as it's also the component used for the video ads. At least that's how I understand it.
"Don't try to be a great man... just be a man. Let history make its own judgments." -- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073
Comments
I'm afraid you'll find Star Trek's creators and custodians have not always lived up to the lofty ideals they make their money by espousing. Without meaning to disparage Timelines, it's fair to say this game is likely not a critical part of CBS's bottom line. The backlash among the forum members isn't unanimous, and forum members are only a tiny percentage of the overall player base in the first place.
You're welcome to try to recruit some of those actors who promote idealism over capitalism, though. Over at GalaxyCon, they're selling two minute one-on-one video chats. If you can wait another week, Robert Picardo, Tim Russ, and Garrett Wang only charge $55 apiece for those chats. But if you want to start sooner, you can make the case to William Shatner this very afternoon at 2:15 EST for $245. If you think you can persuade him in one minute, you can save $100 and wait until 3:00. Fair warning, though, his public video panel starts at 1:00 and he's bound to be losing his concentration by then.
Please know this comes with all the love and respect I have to give:
Did it slip by the due diligence that was done when the Offer Wall was added?
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1. Well done. From the moment the wall went live, players were repoting potential scams. It only took 2 and a half weeks to pull the plug, but there is still a way to go. (There was a Hassleoff concert, but theres still alot of dumptruck loads of cement fragements that need to be hauled out)
2. Questions regarding privacy concerns still have not been adequately adressed.
3. I am still logging in to the game for the sake of my fleet, but spending, ad warps, etc are still on ice. I also, for the first time in four years, not motivated to at least get thresholds in events.
The problem with #1, is that their response is a little too only because they are violating a rule on one platform thing. It only affected certain platforms. Platforms that had rules against what the MalWall does......
I applaud you for knowing that the Emancipation Proclamation was restricted to liberating enslaved people in Union occupied Confederate states but man, oh man, do I cringe at your application of that knowledge in this context.
Well, it was the first example to pop into mind. I can edit.....
Oh, no edit necessary! I didn't mean to come off as critiquing or attacking. It was just that thing where you chuckle and shake your head at something unorthodox but surprising.
Think:
The offer wall is a toxic horror of privacy violation regardless of whether or not you have graciously decided not to involuntarily feed it our data whether we use it or not. The fact still stands that in order to actually use the offer wall you are required to give up copious amounts of information just to complete most of the offers and that isn't including whatever data those 3rd party websites are able to scrape from you and your device simply by visiting them. And we're supposed to kowtow to your benevolence by providing a simple mask in the face of a deadly plague. (The analogy is apt and terrifying.)
It's the level of disdain that TP/WRG has for the players to put in a doorway leading to a lair of horrors and then saying "well, we did put in a door so that you can go in voluntarily" that has people like me still recoiling and still disgusted by the inclusion of the offer wall. It's a purely evil move motivated by nothing more than profit at whatever cost. It's a step that even DB was unwilling to take. That speaks pretty loudly to how horrible the inclusion of this sick "feature" is.
Never ascribe to malice, that which is as easily explainable by incompetence. DB in many ways was incompetent (sending a mass email to all users is a wow moment). It appears that TP is also incompetent. I doubt TP even thought about these matters prior to users bring them up (I suspect, like many American companies, they are focused on surviving today rather than survival in the long term).
That quote is a copout at best. After the backlash, attempt at placation, and additional backlash, if it was simple incompetence the the offer wall would have been removed and apologies all around. That didn't happen, so we're past the incompetence excuse.
At one point Apple allowed games in an offer wall. By the time the Offer Wall was added to STT, Apple did not. The Offer Wall as presented never violated Apple's TOS. It's just that the offers available on iOS were terrible because the Offer Wall had to comply with Apple's TOS. So TP removed the Offer Wall for iOS because there was nothing worthwhile in the offers.
The question is, did TP review the types of offers that were available on iOS before going live in the first place? Or did they see a demo of offers for Android, were told there was an iOS compatible API too, and went ahead with the introduction without ever reviewing iOS more carefully.
Or did those green etchings of dead presidents waving under their nose end all consideration?
It doesn't restore my trust if TP's failure to notify us of changes to the TOS was due to incompetence rather than malice. That's not an acceptable "whoopsie." It would trouble me even if it wasn't associated with something dubious, though I know I'm less forgiving of it under these circumstances.
I don't see your point other than making a bad joke about money.
Yes, money was a factor. It may shock you to hear this, but money is a factor in everything a company does. TP didn't add the offer wall so they could give us free DIL. They added the offer wall because IronSource offered TP money for every offer a user completes. That also means that the surveys offering very little DIL were likely generating very little dollars for TP. But the game downloads on Android are probably generating a lot more dollars for TP which is why they offer a lot more DIL in the game and are still present.
None of that changes the fact that the Offer Wall was not in violation of Apple's TOS.
It still smacks of spin, but I'll take it at face value.
Which brings me back to questioning how much trust I feel confident placing in TP even if it is only a matter of inattentiveness.
Of course money is a factor. If you do not want to accept that it is looking more and more like it was the only factor, that is on you. But, don't expect everyone to agree with you.
Of course it was the only factor. I don't know why you're acting surprised. Why would a game company encourage its players to try out other games that potentially could steal their attention and dollars? Why would a game company encourage its users to spend time outside the game filling out a survey for another company? Because they're getting paid to do that. The Offer Wall was added to generate revenue for TP, pure and simple. They've now decided the revenue is not worth the hassle an potential loss of players on iOS. I really don't know what point you're trying to make.
It may be more constructive not to get hung up on the issue of "what" (trying to get more money). They aren't running an organization dedicated to helping the disadvantaged or saving the planet. They run an entertainment biz. There's no deception on that score.
It's the "how" where I would direct our (and their) attention: Not chasing that dollar responsibly (not looking more into ironSource and asking them the self-evident questions we've now asked) or respectfully (taking the decision of whether to play with The Wall out of our hands by not being forthright about all this before implementing it).
I’ll throw out there that I imagine allowing Timelines users to try out other games is one way of a two-way street - STT shows up in the offer walls of other games and drives engagement from a new source of potential customers.
There are two ways to boost revenues: get more spending dollars from your existing user base and get a bigger user base. If you wanted to be real thorough, there are three ways to boost income: those two things above and cutting costs. Everything we’ve seen suggests that TP isn’t engaging in cost-cutting measures (like DB did after the abject failure of the Walking Dead game), so they are focused on bringing in more revenue.
The calculus (hopefully) done by TP when considering the introduction of the Offer Wall determined that spending from new users plus added revenue from IronSource’s other Wall features would offset revenue lost from disgruntled existing users. For iOS, there were no new users being brought in from other games and I imagine people wisely stayed away from the awful surveys in large numbers - meaning that there was nothing against which to balance the loss of revenue from existing players.
I think that’s totally fair. My guess is that TP just realized that they are very exposed legally and are trying to figure out how they can best mitigate it. They seem to have failed to undertake proper due diligence and now they have had to reverse course to some extent.
Still, I have stopped paying any money for anything in STT (including monthly cards, which I had continuously since the game launch) until this Offer Wall vs. privacy issue is cleared up.
Not completely sure if making them even more dependent on money sources outside of direct pay by players is the best signal, but not spending money as long as it's unclear how much privacy I give up just by playing the game is something that hopefully is a sign.
-- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073
I think people are missing what I meant. The "how" is what I am talking about. It took players a!most no time to find out about IronSource's "reputation". Which implies either the company forgot to do due diligence, which is bad. Or they either did do due diligence, and ignored the company's "reputation". Or did not do due diligence because they were indifferent to the company's "reputation". Those two are both worse than forgetting to do it. At least to me.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, regardless of what side of the issue they fall on.......
No animosity here for anyone. And I hope I did not cause anyone to feel any towards me.......
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THIS! This is exactly what is going on!
No statement to their users tells me they've realized they made a huge (legal) mistake. Withholding requested information from their users tells me they're trying to find the best appeasing way to cover it up without damaging losses to their accounts. And withdrawing the OfferWall from iOS tells me they're looking for any and all loopholes to cancel out of any deal they made with IronSource.
At this point, I'm here to see what the final excuses will be.... But I'm guessing I'll be joining many of you in a class action lawsuit for violating TOS and endangering personal information.
The most data* that needs leaking is your DBID, and you only need that if you're unwilling to generate one-time tokens that are associated with the DBID so keeping ownership of player data purely under TP/WRG control, and is the most secure method as not even your game id is leaked out then.
I know some people don't like the concept of the offer wall, and it is cheap and tacky IMO, but if it is implemented so our data isn't flowing out to IronSource without our consent (e.g. clicking on the offer wall and click I agree, yadda, yadda, yadda, first time) I don't see the problem with ignoring it.
Now, I've stated I'm happy for them to take their time to get it right, but this is dragging now. This shouldn't be so hard to tell the community, instead it just makes TP/WRG look dodgy and thoughtless.
*This is assuming IronSource make their income from taking a cut from the games, not from monetising our data.
And after reading both the new ToS and Privacy Policy, I consider the issue itself cleared up enough for myself as someone who hasn't even looked at the Offer Wall. If the offers presented there are morally OK is something I can't make a statement on as I do not look at the whole thing. I'm hopeful that it shows up in data they are monitoring when I do not open the Offer Wall but instead pay for a Monthly Card.
From my software development experience, if you want the Offer Wall to be kicked out, you need to make sure very few people actually use it, lack of usage is the best sign in data to remove something. If you want IronSource out completely, also make sure people don't watch any in-game ads.
-- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073
That first paragraph is the $64,000 Question for iOS players. Let me not just quote that, but repeat it in bold, in the hope that Shan sees it and can get an answer for us:
So the wall is gone on iOS. Shan, what has been removed? The button, the SDK? What is the status of our data today compared to before the wall was introduced?
Is the Ironsource SDK (and thus, auto-data-harvesting-malware) still part of STT on iOS, or has it been completely removed? Please, please, please answer!
AFAIK it was part of the app before the Offer Wall and it probably still is now, as it's also the component used for the video ads. At least that's how I understand it.
-- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073