If I understand the following paragraph from the new TOS, Datacore and even the Wiki may constitute violation.
PROPRIETARY RIGHTS AND LIMITED LICENSE
No material provided through Tilting Point Services may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted, broadcast or distributed in any way, except as specifically permitted pursuant to these Terms. The Tilting Point Services, including all of their information and contents, such as names, logos, designs, text, data, wallpaper, icons, characters, artwork, images, photographs, graphics, music, sound, messages and software (collectively, “Materials and Content”), are Tilting Point property or that of our partners or licensors and are protected by patent, trademark and/or copyright under United States and/or foreign laws. Except as otherwise provided in these Terms, by the Software or on the Sites, you may not use, download, upload, copy, print, display, perform, reproduce, publish, modify, delete, add to, license, post, transmit, or distribute any Materials and Content from Tilting Point Services in whole or in part, for any public or commercial purpose without our specific prior written permission.
If I understand the following paragraph from the new TOS, Datacore and even the Wiki may constitute violation.
PROPRIETARY RIGHTS AND LIMITED LICENSE
No material provided through Tilting Point Services may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted, broadcast or distributed in any way, except as specifically permitted pursuant to these Terms. The Tilting Point Services, including all of their information and contents, such as names, logos, designs, text, data, wallpaper, icons, characters, artwork, images, photographs, graphics, music, sound, messages and software (collectively, “Materials and Content”), are Tilting Point property or that of our partners or licensors and are protected by patent, trademark and/or copyright under United States and/or foreign laws. Except as otherwise provided in these Terms, by the Software or on the Sites, you may not use, download, upload, copy, print, display, perform, reproduce, publish, modify, delete, add to, license, post, transmit, or distribute any Materials and Content from Tilting Point Services in whole or in part, for any public or commercial purpose without our specific prior written permission.
I really hope someone at TP has thought long and hard about what it would do to their customer base if they cracked down on user-generated content. I doubt they have, if they let their legal team put that language in there. While part of me is disappointed, another part just wants to grab some popcorn for when TP’s seemingly endless parade of bad decisions leads to the game imploding.
If I understand the following paragraph from the new TOS, Datacore and even the Wiki may constitute violation.
PROPRIETARY RIGHTS AND LIMITED LICENSE
No material provided through Tilting Point Services may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted, broadcast or distributed in any way, except as specifically permitted pursuant to these Terms. The Tilting Point Services, including all of their information and contents, such as names, logos, designs, text, data, wallpaper, icons, characters, artwork, images, photographs, graphics, music, sound, messages and software (collectively, “Materials and Content”), are Tilting Point property or that of our partners or licensors and are protected by patent, trademark and/or copyright under United States and/or foreign laws. Except as otherwise provided in these Terms, by the Software or on the Sites, you may not use, download, upload, copy, print, display, perform, reproduce, publish, modify, delete, add to, license, post, transmit, or distribute any Materials and Content from Tilting Point Services in whole or in part, for any public or commercial purpose without our specific prior written permission.
Was there a similar statement in the prior TOS?
I don't know what it was specifically, but some variation has been there all along. It came up during the IAmPicard controversy. As I recall, DB issued a catch-all statement reiterating that per TOS, player-made apps that directly accessed the game were not allowed. The creator had already taken down the app by then, though.
At the risk of being Chicken Little, I've been acutely attentive to these things ever since I had a DMCA complaint filed against my publicly shared ranked list of TNG episode titles. Something like Datacore or the Big Book not only features Star Trek content, but Timelines-specific content. Given how explicitly clear TP has been that they aren't DB, I wouldn't count on them continuing DB's laissez-faire stance on such player-made resources.
I believe during Idol’s stream the TP representative said they’ve used the wiki before, doubt they would issue a takedown.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
The prudent thing would be for the current custodians of these various resources to ask for written permission from TP to continue maintaining them. The TOS only tells you to use their contact page (no link provided in that text) to get hold of them. I did that and the only method is a single email address,
hello@tiltingpoint.com
I dunno why they didn't just say "Contact us at hello@tiltingpoint.com" instead of making us go on a scavenger hunt.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
They pinned IAP until they didn't....
Yes but we have a less contentious relationship with the game than IAP had...
The prudent thing would be for the current custodians of these various resources to ask for written permission from TP to continue maintaining them. The TOS only tells you to use their contact page (no link provided in that text) to get hold of them. I did that and the only method is a single email address,
hello@tiltingpoint.com
I dunno why they didn't just say "Contact us at hello@tiltingpoint.com" instead of making us go on a scavenger hunt.
Good news! We did submit a ticket regarding the new Datacore and ask - actually about a week ago.
The prudent thing would be for the current custodians of these various resources to ask for written permission from TP to continue maintaining them. The TOS only tells you to use their contact page (no link provided in that text) to get hold of them. I did that and the only method is a single email address,
hello@tiltingpoint.com
I dunno why they didn't just say "Contact us at hello@tiltingpoint.com" instead of making us go on a scavenger hunt.
Good news! We did submit a ticket regarding the new Datacore and ask - actually about a week ago.
I'm keen to see what reply you get. That will have some influence on whether I continue playing. I suspect I'm not alone in that anticipation.
The prudent thing would be for the current custodians of these various resources to ask for written permission from TP to continue maintaining them. The TOS only tells you to use their contact page (no link provided in that text) to get hold of them. I did that and the only method is a single email address,
hello@tiltingpoint.com
I dunno why they didn't just say "Contact us at hello@tiltingpoint.com" instead of making us go on a scavenger hunt.
Good news! We did submit a ticket regarding the new Datacore and ask - actually about a week ago.
I'm keen to see what reply you get. That will have some influence on whether I continue playing. I suspect I'm not alone in that anticipation.
It'll have to be a paraphrased reply.
Hopefully, TP can continue the good relationship that DB developed with the players creating helpful resources.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
They pinned IAP until they didn't....
Yes but we have a less contentious relationship with the game than IAP had...
People were abusing IAP and a bug/glitch to exploit the game, IIRC.......
Why was Vicki not expelled from Greendale after she literally stabbed Pierce in the face with a pencil?!?!?
The prudent thing would be for the current custodians of these various resources to ask for written permission from TP to continue maintaining them. The TOS only tells you to use their contact page (no link provided in that text) to get hold of them. I did that and the only method is a single email address,
hello@tiltingpoint.com
I dunno why they didn't just say "Contact us at hello@tiltingpoint.com" instead of making us go on a scavenger hunt.
Good news! We did submit a ticket regarding the new Datacore and ask - actually about a week ago.
I'm keen to see what reply you get. That will have some influence on whether I continue playing. I suspect I'm not alone in that anticipation.
It'll have to be a paraphrased reply.
It's not merely a matter of pass/fail. It's also about establishing the parameters and criteria for player-made resources. I care more about those boundaries being more clearly established than I care about whether Datacore or anything else is within them. Given the specificity of all this and the scope of the implications, it seems to me TP should want whatever they decide to be passed along in their exact, carefully chosen words rather than have someone else give the rest of us their interpretation of what the gist of it is. I shouldn't have to defer to another player's phrasing of what the gist of those boundaries are. (Not a jab at Silver; it's just that it's an unfair position to put any player.)
I imagine this is simply a matter of making sure no one finds a way to use TP's content harmfully. Not allowing the use of their logo, for instance, is a safeguard against anyone associating something TP finds objectionable with their company/product. (See: Matt Furie and what's become of his Pepe the Frog cartoon.) Normally, I'd just assume that's all there was to that kind of language, agree with it as reasonable, and carry on about my day. Unfortunately, TP's actions and statements of the last few weeks have been so rooted in threading the needle of the small fine print that I've become wary. Plus, we never got any official reassurance about the extent to which TP regards player-made resources as fair use back when I asked in April.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
They pinned IAP until they didn't....
Yes but we have a less contentious relationship with the game than IAP had...
People were abusing IAP and a bug/glitch to exploit the game, IIRC.......
I don't think @Daev was equating Datacore with IAmPicard, but rather noting that just because a player-made resource has enjoyed tacit approval to date doesn't mean it will still be allowed tomorrow.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
They pinned IAP until they didn't....
Yes but we have a less contentious relationship with the game than IAP had...
People were abusing IAP and a bug/glitch to exploit the game, IIRC.......
I don't think @Daev was equating Datacore with IAmPicard, but rather noting that just because a player-made resource has enjoyed tacit approval to date doesn't mean it will still be allowed tomorrow.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
They pinned IAP until they didn't....
Yes but we have a less contentious relationship with the game than IAP had...
People were abusing IAP and a bug/glitch to exploit the game, IIRC.......
I don't think @Daev was equating Datacore with IAmPicard, but rather noting that just because a player-made resource has enjoyed tacit approval to date doesn't mean it will still be allowed tomorrow.
Yeah. I was just stating my recollection of why IAP fell out of favor. Not in any way suggesting that DataCore has a similar exploit or other issue.
Why was Vicki not expelled from Greendale after she literally stabbed Pierce in the face with a pencil?!?!?
To paraphrase our reply, we got neither approval or censure, so have chosen the least contentious path, we will continue to pass through the login to the WRG site, and let people take their data into datacore manually, and we won't put forward any tool that writes to the game.
That said, we have several ideas on how to provide more valuable information via datacore in this manner.
The next iteration of the bot already has improved recognition of screenshots from different devices
To paraphrase our reply, we got neither approval or censure, so have chosen the least contentious path, we will continue to pass through the login to the WRG site, and let people take their data into datacore manually, and we won't put forward any tool that writes to the game.
That said, we have several ideas on how to provide more valuable information via datacore in this manner.
The next iteration of the bot already has improved recognition of screenshots from different devices
Does it know my battery charge level?
🖖🖖🏻🖖🏼🖖🏽🖖🏿😃😁😃😁😃
🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹
Why was Vicki not expelled from Greendale after she literally stabbed Pierce in the face with a pencil?!?!?
The ToS has a nice exception clause for community video, it would be awesome if they could add one for things like the wiki and other community websites/tools and make it easier to draw the line between the absolutely forbidden bots and tools and what is accepted as a resource for the community.
"Don't try to be a great man... just be a man. Let history make its own judgments." -- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073
To paraphrase our reply, we got neither approval or censure, so have chosen the least contentious path, we will continue to pass through the login to the WRG site, and let people take their data into datacore manually, and we won't put forward any tool that writes to the game.
That said, we have several ideas on how to provide more valuable information via datacore in this manner.
The next iteration of the bot already has improved recognition of screenshots from different devices
Given it's fairly clear that API development wasn't a core competency of DB, and TP looks to be following that same trend, avoiding writing to the game sounds wise.
Going off piste a moment - is there anywhere I can grab the card stats in a machine readable format? Not bothered about it being a static snapshot, I was just debating fiddling about with a half-assed thought about ranking of my own, and fIgured I'd ask that before faffing about extracting info from a google sheet for test data.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
Man, isn't the wiki almost entirely ads now?
CABTools.app
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
Man, isn't the wiki almost entirely ads now?
It's not YouTube level yet, but I do get an ad pop up everytime I open up a page now......
Why was Vicki not expelled from Greendale after she literally stabbed Pierce in the face with a pencil?!?!?
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
Man, isn't the wiki almost entirely ads now?
It's not YouTube level yet, but I do get an ad pop up everytime I open up a page now......
Fine, then. Y’all pay for it.
"In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
Man, isn't the wiki almost entirely ads now?
It's not YouTube level yet, but I do get an ad pop up everytime I open up a page now......
Fine, then. Y’all pay for it.
We are? When the ads pop up, doesn't the Wiki get reimbursed? Maybe I missed the concept of the ads.......
Why was Vicki not expelled from Greendale after she literally stabbed Pierce in the face with a pencil?!?!?
Oh, not dismissing the need for ads at all. Just pointing out they are being used on community resources... for perfectly valid reasons.
Though, in the case of the wiki - I think they are a bit excessive. I get banner ads below ever single heading and subheading of the thing - and since most pages have a lot of headers with little content...
I guessed it was set up for Auto-ads on Google Adsense, and Google just went to town. Just not as clean as it used to be as a result.
CABTools.app
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)
Comments
Was there a similar statement in the prior TOS?
I really hope someone at TP has thought long and hard about what it would do to their customer base if they cracked down on user-generated content. I doubt they have, if they let their legal team put that language in there. While part of me is disappointed, another part just wants to grab some popcorn for when TP’s seemingly endless parade of bad decisions leads to the game imploding.
Without community supported resources, there ceases to be a community and when there ceases to be a community well we all know what that means.
I don't know what it was specifically, but some variation has been there all along. It came up during the IAmPicard controversy. As I recall, DB issued a catch-all statement reiterating that per TOS, player-made apps that directly accessed the game were not allowed. The creator had already taken down the app by then, though.
At the risk of being Chicken Little, I've been acutely attentive to these things ever since I had a DMCA complaint filed against my publicly shared ranked list of TNG episode titles. Something like Datacore or the Big Book not only features Star Trek content, but Timelines-specific content. Given how explicitly clear TP has been that they aren't DB, I wouldn't count on them continuing DB's laissez-faire stance on such player-made resources.
As Shan pins our resources to the forums and WRG Ben has stated on the stream that they like looking at our resources I think any non-profit reference stuff is absolutely fine. If we ever started a patreon, included adverts or asked for donations/funds then that would be a sticky point.
My Cryostasis Vault
They pinned IAP until they didn't....
hello@tiltingpoint.com
I dunno why they didn't just say "Contact us at hello@tiltingpoint.com" instead of making us go on a scavenger hunt.
Yes but we have a less contentious relationship with the game than IAP had...
1. Expressly allow player-made tools; or
2. Incorporate the tool’s functions into the game themselves.
I won’t play the game without the tools because it’s simply more work and time than I wish to dedicate to a game. YMMV
Good news! We did submit a ticket regarding the new Datacore and ask - actually about a week ago.
Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire
Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!
I'm keen to see what reply you get. That will have some influence on whether I continue playing. I suspect I'm not alone in that anticipation.
It'll have to be a paraphrased reply.
Hopefully, TP can continue the good relationship that DB developed with the players creating helpful resources.
People were abusing IAP and a bug/glitch to exploit the game, IIRC.......
It's not merely a matter of pass/fail. It's also about establishing the parameters and criteria for player-made resources. I care more about those boundaries being more clearly established than I care about whether Datacore or anything else is within them. Given the specificity of all this and the scope of the implications, it seems to me TP should want whatever they decide to be passed along in their exact, carefully chosen words rather than have someone else give the rest of us their interpretation of what the gist of it is. I shouldn't have to defer to another player's phrasing of what the gist of those boundaries are. (Not a jab at Silver; it's just that it's an unfair position to put any player.)
I imagine this is simply a matter of making sure no one finds a way to use TP's content harmfully. Not allowing the use of their logo, for instance, is a safeguard against anyone associating something TP finds objectionable with their company/product. (See: Matt Furie and what's become of his Pepe the Frog cartoon.) Normally, I'd just assume that's all there was to that kind of language, agree with it as reasonable, and carry on about my day. Unfortunately, TP's actions and statements of the last few weeks have been so rooted in threading the needle of the small fine print that I've become wary. Plus, we never got any official reassurance about the extent to which TP regards player-made resources as fair use back when I asked in April.
I don't think @Daev was equating Datacore with IAmPicard, but rather noting that just because a player-made resource has enjoyed tacit approval to date doesn't mean it will still be allowed tomorrow.
Yup, 100%.
Yeah. I was just stating my recollection of why IAP fell out of favor. Not in any way suggesting that DataCore has a similar exploit or other issue.
That said, we have several ideas on how to provide more valuable information via datacore in this manner.
The next iteration of the bot already has improved recognition of screenshots from different devices
Does it know my battery charge level?
🖖🖖🏻🖖🏼🖖🏽🖖🏿😃😁😃😁😃
🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹🐹
-- Dr. Zefram Cochrane, around 2073
Given it's fairly clear that API development wasn't a core competency of DB, and TP looks to be following that same trend, avoiding writing to the game sounds wise.
Man, isn't the wiki almost entirely ads now?
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)
It's not YouTube level yet, but I do get an ad pop up everytime I open up a page now......
Fine, then. Y’all pay for it.
Everybody - Community resources are awesome
Travis - "But but, armchair lawyerisms"
you're a ray of sunshine, aren't you?
Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
We are? When the ads pop up, doesn't the Wiki get reimbursed? Maybe I missed the concept of the ads.......
Oh, not dismissing the need for ads at all. Just pointing out they are being used on community resources... for perfectly valid reasons.
Though, in the case of the wiki - I think they are a bit excessive. I get banner ads below ever single heading and subheading of the thing - and since most pages have a lot of headers with little content...
I guessed it was set up for Auto-ads on Google Adsense, and Google just went to town. Just not as clean as it used to be as a result.
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)