There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
yes,sir - for example,deanna can feel the feelings from other lifeforms (empath)but cant read thoughts, her mom can read thoughts (telepath)
Can she? I just figured she was better at reading emotions due to her being a pure Betazoid. Her comments about Picard’s thoughts, I always read as just her reading his emotions in a very detailed manner OR her just messing with him (more so the latter).
"emotions" was the word i searched for,ty:)
and yes,in a very detailed way - she´s grown up and could train her ability for some decades now:)
and with her "starfleet training for counsellor" on top she should be able to do this very detailed/specific
still a big difference between feeling/sence emotions and actually read thoughts,but i have the feeling we mean the same at the end:D
(am really bad with english,but look at the german forum...even the announcements are delayed for days sometimes)
EDIT: maybe pure betazoids also can feel the emotions,but why? they can just read the thoughts for the truth. i think it was never mentioned in the show,or did it?
the episode "tin man" with the space creature "gomtuu" - the betazoid could also feel the emotions from gomtuu,right? but it was also mentioned he is a "special" betazoid,so i´m not sure...
we know "in the phase" (i dont know how they called it in english in the show) a female betazoid cant really read thoughts - ask picard,he knows:D
-Nona had Botanist Trait Added
-Homesteader Janeway had Gardener Trait Added
How about merging those two traits, they seem rather similar?
Completely different things. Botany is a scientific discipline, on a par with astrophysics or genetics in terms of the amount of study and effort required. Gardening is gardening.
-Nona had Botanist Trait Added
-Homesteader Janeway had Gardener Trait Added
How about merging those two traits, they seem rather similar?
Completely different things. Botany is a scientific discipline, on a par with astrophysics or genetics in terms of the amount of study and effort required. Gardening is gardening.
I see what you are saying, but a more "gentle" way to say it might be "Botanists are scientists. Many gardeners do not have as much training in making plants grow." Some people who are really into gardening, are really into gardening. And take time to learn a great deal about it.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna is only half Betazoid (and half human), so her abilities are only empathic. Which means she can only feel their emotions. Full telepaths, such as Lwaxana, have the ability to read someone's mind and hear their thoughts.
So while Deanna can merely sense certain things, like if someone is lying, her mom can fully tell the specific details of said lie.
-Nona had Botanist Trait Added
-Homesteader Janeway had Gardener Trait Added
How about merging those two traits, they seem rather similar?
Completely different things. Botany is a scientific discipline, on a par with astrophysics or genetics in terms of the amount of study and effort required. Gardening is gardening.
I see what you are saying, but a more "gentle" way to say it might be "Botanists are scientists. Many gardeners do not have as much training in making plants grow." Some people who are really into gardening, are really into gardening. And take time to learn a great deal about it.
I could say that, but it wouldn't be accurate. Botany is not "making plants grow", it's much more involved than that. Which is the point I was trying to make. But because it's just plants it doesn't get the respect it deserves as a complex field of scientific study. Just look at the way Keiko was treated by the writers on DS9.
But I can see your point. I didn't mean to disparage gardening or gardeners. I know from personal experience that gardening requires skill and dedication, neither of which I have (whatever the opposite of green fingers is, that's what I've got).
But gardening is not botany. And botany is not gardening. To suggest otherwise does a disservice to both.
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna describes herself as an empath on multiple occasions, just about every time the subject comes up. It's pretty much her character's defining trait in the show.
Lwaxana is equally clear that she's a telepath. And clearly demonstrates her abilities on multiple occasions, holding telepathic conversations with people (often Deanna but not exclusively) and picking up specific thoughts.
So yes, there is a difference and it's mentioned repeatedly and often.
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna is only half Betazoid (and half human), so her abilities are only empathic. Which means she can only feel their emotions. Full telepaths, such as Lwaxana, have the ability to read someone's mind and hear their thoughts.
So while Deanna can merely sense certain things, like if someone is lying, her mom can fully tell the specific details of said lie.
So how it comes, there has been scences in TNG were she could hear
her mother communicating with her via telepathy and even reply?
That wasn t just sensing emotions.
I know she couldn t do that with other species but still cleary not
just an empath at all.
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna is only half Betazoid (and half human), so her abilities are only empathic. Which means she can only feel their emotions. Full telepaths, such as Lwaxana, have the ability to read someone's mind and hear their thoughts.
So while Deanna can merely sense certain things, like if someone is lying, her mom can fully tell the specific details of said lie.
So how it comes, there has been scences in TNG were she could hear
her mother communicating with her via telepathy and even reply?
That wasn t just sensing emotions.
I know she couldn t do that with other species but still cleary not
just an empath at all.
Very specific case. Which I addressed above. She can only communicate telepathically with her mother, because they are closely related and have a strong bond. I know she had telepathy with Riker in the pilot, but I believe that is a "changed premise" as the Nitpickers say. Don't recall it ever happening again.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna is only half Betazoid (and half human), so her abilities are only empathic. Which means she can only feel their emotions. Full telepaths, such as Lwaxana, have the ability to read someone's mind and hear their thoughts.
So while Deanna can merely sense certain things, like if someone is lying, her mom can fully tell the specific details of said lie.
So how it comes, there has been scences in TNG were she could hear
her mother communicating with her via telepathy and even reply?
That wasn t just sensing emotions.
I know she couldn t do that with other species but still cleary not
just an empath at all.
Very specific case. Which I addressed above. She can only communicate telepathically with her mother, because they are closely related and have a strong bond. I know she had telepathy with Riker in the pilot, but I believe that is a "changed premise" as the Nitpickers say. Don't recall it ever happening again.
<rolls eyes at Scott’s use of “nitpickers”>
"In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna is only half Betazoid (and half human), so her abilities are only empathic. Which means she can only feel their emotions. Full telepaths, such as Lwaxana, have the ability to read someone's mind and hear their thoughts.
So while Deanna can merely sense certain things, like if someone is lying, her mom can fully tell the specific details of said lie.
So how it comes, there has been scences in TNG were she could hear
her mother communicating with her via telepathy and even reply?
That wasn t just sensing emotions.
I know she couldn t do that with other species but still cleary not
just an empath at all.
Very specific case. Which I addressed above. She can only communicate telepathically with her mother, because they are closely related and have a strong bond. I know she had telepathy with Riker in the pilot, but I believe that is a "changed premise" as the Nitpickers say. Don't recall it ever happening again.
Did we ever see Troi initiate it? It could be just all done with her mother being the conduit. Lwaxana can project her thoughts into her daughter’s head and she can hear her daughter’s thoughts back. Even if we did see Troi initiate it it could just be her thinking her thoughts in a way that Betazoids do when they wish to have their thoughts read by other Betazoids.
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna describes herself as an empath on multiple occasions, just about every time the subject comes up. It's pretty much her character's defining trait in the show.
Lwaxana is equally clear that she's a telepath. And clearly demonstrates her abilities on multiple occasions, holding telepathic conversations with people (often Deanna but not exclusively) and picking up specific thoughts.
So yes, there is a difference and it's mentioned repeatedly and often.
So when Deanna communicates her thoughts without talking to Riker, her mother, other Betazoids, etc. that's because of her empathy? 😏
The in-universe explanation just doesn't hold up to what happens on multiple occasions. Deanna is still clearly a telepath, just not as strong of a telepath as a full Betazoid. "Empath" seems an arbitrary and pointless demarcation here. Kamala, Ilia, Book, or Gem more accurately match the term.
On a tangent, there was at least one human telepath in the TOS era. Presumably this wasn't a new thing since Starfleet kept "esp ratings" on crew members. So just because Deanna is half-human doesn't mean that it has to "water down" her telepathic abilities. Spock doesn't appear to have his telepathy diminished by his human heritage.
The best in-game solution IMHO is to reclassify both "empath" and "telepath" as "psi" or something similar. Also Lt. Ilia should have either an empath or psi trait. Maybe the probe version too, since it was supposed to be an exact replica and they've already made a machine a telepath before.
That aside, and the many other trait audits that are still needed, I absolutely love this trait update as a meaningful first step by the devs.
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna describes herself as an empath on multiple occasions, just about every time the subject comes up. It's pretty much her character's defining trait in the show.
Lwaxana is equally clear that she's a telepath. And clearly demonstrates her abilities on multiple occasions, holding telepathic conversations with people (often Deanna but not exclusively) and picking up specific thoughts.
So yes, there is a difference and it's mentioned repeatedly and often.
So when Deanna communicates her thoughts without talking to Riker, her mother, other Betazoids, etc. that's because of her empathy? 😏
The in-universe explanation just doesn't hold up to what happens on multiple occasions. Deanna is still clearly a telepath, just not as strong of a telepath as a full Betazoid. "Empath" seems an arbitrary and pointless demarcation here. Kamala, Ilia, Book, or Gem more accurately match the term.
On a tangent, there was at least one human telepath in the TOS era. Presumably this wasn't a new thing since Starfleet kept "esp ratings" on crew members. So just because Deanna is half-human doesn't mean that it has to "water down" her telepathic abilities. Spock doesn't appear to have his telepathy diminished by his human heritage.
The best in-game solution IMHO is to reclassify both "empath" and "telepath" as "psi" or something similar. Also Lt. Ilia should have either an empath or psi trait. Maybe the probe version too, since it was supposed to be an exact replica and they've already made a machine a telepath before.
That aside, and the many other trait audits that are still needed, I absolutely love this trait update as a meaningful first step by the devs.
Remember that Troi is also a counselor. Her patients would be less comfortable with her if she told them she was a telepath reading their minds rather than calling herself an empath.
I believe Tuvok and Sarek have both been shown to be far more powerful telepaths than Spock a half-Vulcan. Tuvok has an understanding of not just projecting thoughts but physically affecting objects like flame when he was teaching Kes. Sarek when sick was able to project his emotions into people he was not physically touching and affecting them after he had left the room.
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna is only half Betazoid (and half human), so her abilities are only empathic. Which means she can only feel their emotions. Full telepaths, such as Lwaxana, have the ability to read someone's mind and hear their thoughts.
So while Deanna can merely sense certain things, like if someone is lying, her mom can fully tell the specific details of said lie.
So how it comes, there has been scences in TNG were she could hear
her mother communicating with her via telepathy and even reply?
That wasn t just sensing emotions.
I know she couldn t do that with other species but still cleary not
just an empath at all.
My logical guess would be that Lwaxana was projecting her thought to Deanna and able to "hear" her thoughts as a reply.
I could be wrong, but I believe I remember she (Lwaxana) also did that to Picard.
Deanna Troi communicated telepathically will several characters during the show. In some cases those conversations were initiated by her. Most often these were with species who were telepathic. Recall the episode when we learn about her older sister, or the one where she is telepathically abused. As the actress herself has pointed out, that aspect of her character was writer room flexible. Averaged, on the whole she is proved to be a weak telepath. With telepaths (minds more sensitive to telepathy, sending and receiving) they appear to make up the difference. With those who are not, no. Her weak telepathic ability allows her to function as an empath generally speaking. Perhaps this is a bad simile, but it's like the difference between a powerful receiver/transmiter and a poor one. The capability is there, but not the power.
Contrast that with a real Empath. A real empath is not capable more than emotions, period. Guinan and her people don't interact telepathically with telepaths.
Its hard to say what that means for Deanna. Mostly because it's situational. She is a telepath technical, but she's was nerfed by the writers. She is a functional Empath generally, not a real Empath.
There's significant enough difference between both sets that I don't see why they would be combined. Ambassador and Politician for sure. I would protest that merging. I would probably accept Empath and Telepath merging, but still don't agree with it.
I'm not going to get into the discussion on what traits should be added to or removed from specific crew. I know the community will nitpick it to death until the most obvious traits are done. (Like Pilot for Pinafore Data and Veteran for Tux Nog.)
It looks like one of the aims of this trait audit is to remove traits that only have a few crew, but there are still dozens more like Excaliban and jahSepp. Are those 1-2 crew traits going to all be removed and not accompany new crew going forward?
I think when it comes to species and faction/affiliation we're just going to have to **tsk tsk** it up and accept unique traits in those instances. It doesn't seem right to remove them and there's also no real way to combine them into something else that doesn't end up affecting large swaths of other crew as well.
I am just not convinced that Empath/Telepath has been distributed accurately in game. Llwaxanna is a Telepath, but Dianna is an Empath. Was there a difference in their powers mentioned in the show?
Deanna describes herself as an empath on multiple occasions, just about every time the subject comes up. It's pretty much her character's defining trait in the show.
Lwaxana is equally clear that she's a telepath. And clearly demonstrates her abilities on multiple occasions, holding telepathic conversations with people (often Deanna but not exclusively) and picking up specific thoughts.
So yes, there is a difference and it's mentioned repeatedly and often.
So when Deanna communicates her thoughts without talking to Riker, her mother, other Betazoids, etc. that's because of her empathy? 😏
The in-universe explanation just doesn't hold up to what happens on multiple occasions. Deanna is still clearly a telepath, just not as strong of a telepath as a full Betazoid. "Empath" seems an arbitrary and pointless demarcation here. Kamala, Ilia, Book, or Gem more accurately match the term.
On a tangent, there was at least one human telepath in the TOS era. Presumably this wasn't a new thing since Starfleet kept "esp ratings" on crew members. So just because Deanna is half-human doesn't mean that it has to "water down" her telepathic abilities. Spock doesn't appear to have his telepathy diminished by his human heritage.
The best in-game solution IMHO is to reclassify both "empath" and "telepath" as "psi" or something similar. Also Lt. Ilia should have either an empath or psi trait. Maybe the probe version too, since it was supposed to be an exact replica and they've already made a machine a telepath before.
That aside, and the many other trait audits that are still needed, I absolutely love this trait update as a meaningful first step by the devs.
Remember that Troi is also a counselor. Her patients would be less comfortable with her if she told them she was a telepath reading their minds rather than calling herself an empath.
I believe Tuvok and Sarek have both been shown to be far more powerful telepaths than Spock a half-Vulcan. Tuvok has an understanding of not just projecting thoughts but physically affecting objects like flame when he was teaching Kes. Sarek when sick was able to project his emotions into people he was not physically touching and affecting them after he had left the room.
If people aren't comfortable with telepaths, I can't imagine the job would change that perception much. Similarly, not sure that the step down to empathy is all that much more disarming than being a telepath for counseling purposes.
As for Spock, he demonstrated non-touch telepathy on at least one occasion that jumps to mind (encountering the Kelvins). I think there's at least one TAS ep too. Debatably V'ger as well. And he was able to leave his Katra in a non-Vulcan when such abilities had been (mostly) lost to Vulcans for centuries prior to ENT. There's undoubtedly biological variability as a component to Vulcan psi abilities, but training and experience could also explain differences. Tuvok's tutelage of Kes in particular seems to suggest it's akin to working a muscle.
I don't remember Tuvok manipulating the flame himself, just using it as a meditation aid. Regardless, at that point we're then bringing in telekinesis/pyrokinesis, which would suggest that grouping everything under the "psi" label would be more efficient than a proliferation of terms that can run afoul of edge cases. Not a hill I'd die on though.
Appreciate the alternate perspectives on Troi and Spock. 🖖
And it may depend on the power of the individual Deanna is in contact with and time spent with them. She and Riker knew each other well and developed the ability. I remember that she asked if he still could sense her thoughts, implying that it was something that could be gained and lost between people.
Also, didn't she say something to her "fiance" in "Haven" about her thinking they could eventually sense each other's thoughts? As in, when they got to know each other better, the ability would form since they were both only part Betazoid.
I wouldn't be surprised if she were able to pick up surface thoughts from her oldest and closest friends in "Picard".
W.W. CarlislePlayed since January 20, 2019Captain Level- 99 (May 9, 2022)VIP 14Crew Quarters: 485/485Most recent/Lowest- Anbo-jyutsu Kyle Riker (1/5* Lvl 30) 5/29/23Immortalized x-866 5* x184, 4* x 490, 3* x91, 2* x62, and 1* x27Most recent Immortal - Tearful Janeway 4* 5/25/23Current non-event project- Improving my Science base skill. Retrieval Project- Mestral 1/5*
-Nona had Botanist Trait Added
-Homesteader Janeway had Gardener Trait Added
How about merging those two traits, they seem rather similar?
Completely different things. Botany is a scientific discipline, on a par with astrophysics or genetics in terms of the amount of study and effort required. Gardening is gardening.
I see what you are saying, but a more "gentle" way to say it might be "Botanists are scientists. Many gardeners do not have as much training in making plants grow." Some people who are really into gardening, are really into gardening. And take time to learn a great deal about it.
I could say that, but it wouldn't be accurate. Botany is not "making plants grow", it's much more involved than that. Which is the point I was trying to make. But because it's just plants it doesn't get the respect it deserves as a complex field of scientific study. Just look at the way Keiko was treated by the writers on DS9.
But I can see your point. I didn't mean to disparage gardening or gardeners. I know from personal experience that gardening requires skill and dedication, neither of which I have (whatever the opposite of green fingers is, that's what I've got).
But gardening is not botany. And botany is not gardening. To suggest otherwise does a disservice to both.
But to the layman, I suspect they are as interchangeable as "astronomer" and "astrophysicist" are. And if they're collapsing one of those pairs, why not collapse the other?
Another thing to consider with Deanna is characterization. On several occasions she strongly considered reading individuals thoughts as a violation. In her first appearance her mother asked her if she was practicing reading minds. It is possible Deanna actively chose and chooses to only read emotions rather than thoughts. She was often extremely critical event with her mother for reading people's individual thoughts without them being aware or against their request. During the negotiations for the Barzan wormhole she viewed using even Empathic ability for personal gain as ethically wrong. Within the context of the dialogue with her mother and others, it seems reasonable to assume he never developed her full talent by choice or only lets that ethical guard down when the other person is aware and won't feel violated.
We're forgetting the biggest trait problem that has existed since the dawn of this game, Shapeshifter. This isn't applied correctly to Changelings. The only Odo who has the Shapeshifter trait is Trader Odo who was SOLID LOCKED. It's missing from all other variants of Odo as well as Laas, Changeling Founder, Changeling Martok, and Changeling Bashir. The whole point of their entire race was shapeshifting!
-Nona had Botanist Trait Added
-Homesteader Janeway had Gardener Trait Added
How about merging those two traits, they seem rather similar?
Completely different things. Botany is a scientific discipline, on a par with astrophysics or genetics in terms of the amount of study and effort required. Gardening is gardening.
I see what you are saying, but a more "gentle" way to say it might be "Botanists are scientists. Many gardeners do not have as much training in making plants grow." Some people who are really into gardening, are really into gardening. And take time to learn a great deal about it.
I could say that, but it wouldn't be accurate. Botany is not "making plants grow", it's much more involved than that. Which is the point I was trying to make. But because it's just plants it doesn't get the respect it deserves as a complex field of scientific study. Just look at the way Keiko was treated by the writers on DS9.
But I can see your point. I didn't mean to disparage gardening or gardeners. I know from personal experience that gardening requires skill and dedication, neither of which I have (whatever the opposite of green fingers is, that's what I've got).
But gardening is not botany. And botany is not gardening. To suggest otherwise does a disservice to both.
But to the layman, I suspect they are as interchangeable as "astronomer" and "astrophysicist" are. And if they're collapsing one of those pairs, why not collapse the other?
I don't think it would work in the same way. I don't know if that's because there's more overlap in the area of studies and activities of an astronomer and an astrophysicist or because people have no idea what either of those actually do, but having Homesteader Janeway with the Botanist trait wouldn't work, just as defining Keiko as a Gardener wouldn't make sense.
I think fusing Botanist and Gardener is like fusing Royalty and Politician. There is some logic behind it, but it doesn't really work in practice.
Be interested to see how this shakes out in the collections. For instance, will Human Q still count toward The Continuum set?
Ben said on timelines they link new collections to traits. Too much work otherwise.
So if Q trait is removed from human Q and you have 5 cards in the collection you would drop to 4. Will your bonus disapear. Or maybe it breaks the game . Shouldnt but we have seen these type of things being forgotten.
Comments
for fixing
🖖🖖🏼🖖🏻🖖🏽🖖🏾🖖🏿
♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
Now, on to my Determined {Klingon Groom} Paris campaign!!!!!
😄😀😆😆😀😄
"emotions" was the word i searched for,ty:)
and yes,in a very detailed way - she´s grown up and could train her ability for some decades now:)
and with her "starfleet training for counsellor" on top she should be able to do this very detailed/specific
still a big difference between feeling/sence emotions and actually read thoughts,but i have the feeling we mean the same at the end:D
(am really bad with english,but look at the german forum...even the announcements are delayed for days sometimes)
EDIT: maybe pure betazoids also can feel the emotions,but why? they can just read the thoughts for the truth. i think it was never mentioned in the show,or did it?
the episode "tin man" with the space creature "gomtuu" - the betazoid could also feel the emotions from gomtuu,right? but it was also mentioned he is a "special" betazoid,so i´m not sure...
we know "in the phase" (i dont know how they called it in english in the show) a female betazoid cant really read thoughts - ask picard,he knows:D
-Homesteader Janeway had Gardener Trait Added
How about merging those two traits, they seem rather similar?
Baby steps. 🖖
Agree 100%. I thought the same thing when I was reading the detailed list.
Completely different things. Botany is a scientific discipline, on a par with astrophysics or genetics in terms of the amount of study and effort required. Gardening is gardening.
I see what you are saying, but a more "gentle" way to say it might be "Botanists are scientists. Many gardeners do not have as much training in making plants grow." Some people who are really into gardening, are really into gardening. And take time to learn a great deal about it.
+1
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Deanna is only half Betazoid (and half human), so her abilities are only empathic. Which means she can only feel their emotions. Full telepaths, such as Lwaxana, have the ability to read someone's mind and hear their thoughts.
So while Deanna can merely sense certain things, like if someone is lying, her mom can fully tell the specific details of said lie.
I could say that, but it wouldn't be accurate. Botany is not "making plants grow", it's much more involved than that. Which is the point I was trying to make. But because it's just plants it doesn't get the respect it deserves as a complex field of scientific study. Just look at the way Keiko was treated by the writers on DS9.
But I can see your point. I didn't mean to disparage gardening or gardeners. I know from personal experience that gardening requires skill and dedication, neither of which I have (whatever the opposite of green fingers is, that's what I've got).
But gardening is not botany. And botany is not gardening. To suggest otherwise does a disservice to both.
Deanna describes herself as an empath on multiple occasions, just about every time the subject comes up. It's pretty much her character's defining trait in the show.
Lwaxana is equally clear that she's a telepath. And clearly demonstrates her abilities on multiple occasions, holding telepathic conversations with people (often Deanna but not exclusively) and picking up specific thoughts.
So yes, there is a difference and it's mentioned repeatedly and often.
So how it comes, there has been scences in TNG were she could hear
her mother communicating with her via telepathy and even reply?
That wasn t just sensing emotions.
I know she couldn t do that with other species but still cleary not
just an empath at all.
Very specific case. Which I addressed above. She can only communicate telepathically with her mother, because they are closely related and have a strong bond. I know she had telepathy with Riker in the pilot, but I believe that is a "changed premise" as the Nitpickers say. Don't recall it ever happening again.
<rolls eyes at Scott’s use of “nitpickers”>
Did we ever see Troi initiate it? It could be just all done with her mother being the conduit. Lwaxana can project her thoughts into her daughter’s head and she can hear her daughter’s thoughts back. Even if we did see Troi initiate it it could just be her thinking her thoughts in a way that Betazoids do when they wish to have their thoughts read by other Betazoids.
So when Deanna communicates her thoughts without talking to Riker, her mother, other Betazoids, etc. that's because of her empathy? 😏
The in-universe explanation just doesn't hold up to what happens on multiple occasions. Deanna is still clearly a telepath, just not as strong of a telepath as a full Betazoid. "Empath" seems an arbitrary and pointless demarcation here. Kamala, Ilia, Book, or Gem more accurately match the term.
On a tangent, there was at least one human telepath in the TOS era. Presumably this wasn't a new thing since Starfleet kept "esp ratings" on crew members. So just because Deanna is half-human doesn't mean that it has to "water down" her telepathic abilities. Spock doesn't appear to have his telepathy diminished by his human heritage.
The best in-game solution IMHO is to reclassify both "empath" and "telepath" as "psi" or something similar. Also Lt. Ilia should have either an empath or psi trait. Maybe the probe version too, since it was supposed to be an exact replica and they've already made a machine a telepath before.
That aside, and the many other trait audits that are still needed, I absolutely love this trait update as a meaningful first step by the devs.
Remember that Troi is also a counselor. Her patients would be less comfortable with her if she told them she was a telepath reading their minds rather than calling herself an empath.
I believe Tuvok and Sarek have both been shown to be far more powerful telepaths than Spock a half-Vulcan. Tuvok has an understanding of not just projecting thoughts but physically affecting objects like flame when he was teaching Kes. Sarek when sick was able to project his emotions into people he was not physically touching and affecting them after he had left the room.
My logical guess would be that Lwaxana was projecting her thought to Deanna and able to "hear" her thoughts as a reply.
I could be wrong, but I believe I remember she (Lwaxana) also did that to Picard.
Well, it’s not like THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE EPISODE or anything...
Contrast that with a real Empath. A real empath is not capable more than emotions, period. Guinan and her people don't interact telepathically with telepaths.
Its hard to say what that means for Deanna. Mostly because it's situational. She is a telepath technical, but she's was nerfed by the writers. She is a functional Empath generally, not a real Empath.
If people aren't comfortable with telepaths, I can't imagine the job would change that perception much. Similarly, not sure that the step down to empathy is all that much more disarming than being a telepath for counseling purposes.
As for Spock, he demonstrated non-touch telepathy on at least one occasion that jumps to mind (encountering the Kelvins). I think there's at least one TAS ep too. Debatably V'ger as well. And he was able to leave his Katra in a non-Vulcan when such abilities had been (mostly) lost to Vulcans for centuries prior to ENT. There's undoubtedly biological variability as a component to Vulcan psi abilities, but training and experience could also explain differences. Tuvok's tutelage of Kes in particular seems to suggest it's akin to working a muscle.
I don't remember Tuvok manipulating the flame himself, just using it as a meditation aid. Regardless, at that point we're then bringing in telekinesis/pyrokinesis, which would suggest that grouping everything under the "psi" label would be more efficient than a proliferation of terms that can run afoul of edge cases. Not a hill I'd die on though.
Appreciate the alternate perspectives on Troi and Spock. 🖖
Also, didn't she say something to her "fiance" in "Haven" about her thinking they could eventually sense each other's thoughts? As in, when they got to know each other better, the ability would form since they were both only part Betazoid.
I wouldn't be surprised if she were able to pick up surface thoughts from her oldest and closest friends in "Picard".
But to the layman, I suspect they are as interchangeable as "astronomer" and "astrophysicist" are. And if they're collapsing one of those pairs, why not collapse the other?
I don't think it would work in the same way. I don't know if that's because there's more overlap in the area of studies and activities of an astronomer and an astrophysicist or because people have no idea what either of those actually do, but having Homesteader Janeway with the Botanist trait wouldn't work, just as defining Keiko as a Gardener wouldn't make sense.
I think fusing Botanist and Gardener is like fusing Royalty and Politician. There is some logic behind it, but it doesn't really work in practice.
Ben said on timelines they link new collections to traits. Too much work otherwise.
So if Q trait is removed from human Q and you have 5 cards in the collection you would drop to 4. Will your bonus disapear. Or maybe it breaks the game . Shouldnt but we have seen these type of things being forgotten.