It's not very relevant to this specific trait changes discussion, but I still think that Cornwell should have Survivalist.
Last time I mentioned it there was a discussion on what survivalist ultimately means, but when looking at the crew that has that trait, a lot of them seem to have it because they fought to survive/proved hard to kill/adapted to difficult circumstances (Klingon Janeway, Klingon Neelix, Ripper...) which is basically the main feature of her character in those episodes.
If “Senator” was removed from Cretak and Vreenak, shouldn’t they get the “Politician” trait now?
Both Brahms cards should have the “Innovator” trait added. She was at the forefront of warp coil design. That’s why Geordi ever “met” her. And being at the forefront of any field, by definition, means you are an innovator.
Control Leland and Covert Operative Leland had Spy removed, but why didn't they get Undercover Operative in it's place? Covert Operative Leland literally has it in his name.
@Emperor Borg Drone Cornwell needs Physician too, Dammit Jim, she’s a Doctor! and it’s talked about in the show too!
She's a counselor. As a psychologist she has an MD, so she's a doctor, but she's not a physician.
I think it depends on how WRG defines “Doctor.” Psychiatrists have an MD; clinical psychologists generally have a PhD. Both are doctors, but different kinds of doctor.
@Emperor Borg Drone Cornwell needs Physician too, Dammit Jim, she’s a Doctor! and it’s talked about in the show too!
She's a counselor. As a psychologist she has an MD, so she's a doctor, but she's not a physician.
If Gillian Taylor, Agnes Jurati and Roger Korby (among others) qualify for the trait, i’d say she comes close enough
I agree with Jurati and Korby, but I've always thought Taylor deserves the trait. With humpbacks recognised as sentient that makes George and Gracie Federation citizens, and as the only one qualified to provide them with any kind of medical care that makes her a (very specialised) physician. 20th century Gillian (if we ever get her) probably shouldn't have the trait.
@Emperor Borg Drone Cornwell needs Physician too, Dammit Jim, she’s a Doctor! and it’s talked about in the show too!
She's a counselor. As a psychologist she has an MD, so she's a doctor, but she's not a physician.
I think it depends on how WRG defines “Doctor.” Psychiatrists have an MD; clinical psychologists generally have a PhD. Both are doctors, but different kinds of doctor.
Whichever kind of doctor she is (I may well have got those confused) she's not a physician. Even if she's an MD it's a completely different specialty.
Control Leland and Covert Operative Leland had Spy removed, but why didn't they get Undercover Operative in it's place? Covert Operative Leland literally has it in his name.
He has it now. You might have to reset your game to see it like I did.
@Emperor Borg Drone Cornwell needs Physician too, Dammit Jim, she’s a Doctor! and it’s talked about in the show too!
She's a counselor. As a psychologist she has an MD, so she's a doctor, but she's not a physician.
I think it depends on how WRG defines “Doctor.” Psychiatrists have an MD; clinical psychologists generally have a PhD. Both are doctors, but different kinds of doctor.
Whichever kind of doctor she is (I may well have got those confused) she's not a physician. Even if she's an MD it's a completely different specialty.
If she's a MD, she IS a physician. Everything established about her makes her sound like a MD.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
On the topic of costumed (and internal consistency);
In The Big Goodbye collection, Satin Dress Lily and Cyrus Redblock don't have costumed, while the others do. Cyrus makes sense - he's a holographic character wearing clothes appropriate to the character and he's not 'playing' anyone. But Lily should have Costumed for the same reason that Tommy Gun Dixon does and they're from the exact same scene.
In The Bride of Chaotica collection, Lonzak, Chaotica and Satan's Robot are not costumed. Makes sense, they are holographic characters, not role-playing in dress. Buster Kincaid Kim, Captain Proton Paris and Arachnia Janeway have Costumed. Makes sense, they are role-playing in the holodeck. BUT The President of Earth is not Costumed and I believe he should be. He is playing a role in the holodeck, dressed in a way he would not otherwise be. He definitely falls more into line with the other crew members than with a character in a program.
In Our Man Bashir collection, the two "real people" in the collection, Bashir, Julian Bashir and Garak, Elim Garak both have Costumed. Makes sense. But of the other five crew who are holographic characters, two are costumed (Falcon, Anastasia) and three are not (Honey Bare, Noah, Duchamps). If we're keeping with the consistency of the other vanity/holodeck collections where real people playing a role are costumed and holographic characters are not, Falcon O'Brien and Anastasia Komananov should have the Costumed trait removed.
In The Wild West collection, they all have the Costumed trait. If you want to keep the real vs hologram logic, Frank Hollander should lose the trait, as he was a holographic character who only shared Data's appearance. I don't know the backstory of the STT originals in this collection, but going by their Human and organic traits, I'll assume that Costumed makes sense.
TLDR - The game's internal logic of how Costumed is applied seems inconsistent. If real person playing role = costumed and non-sentient holographic character = not costumed, then the following changes (only based on existing collection groupings) should be made -
Logician Solok has Costumed trait added. Niners Worf has Costumed trait added. Niners Sisko has Costumed trait added. Satin Dress Lily Sloane has Costumed trait added. The President of Earth has Costumed trait added. Frank Hollander has Costumed trait removed. Falcon O'Brien has Costumed trait removed. Anastasia Komananov has Costumed trait removed.
Certainly one can argue individual crew and whether or not they should have the trait, but the above suggestions are just from looking at existing collection groupings.
edit: I'd recommend going forward a single-trait audit for whatever trait's collection is being added. It is a much more manageable bite for the team to sift through and if it's done after a collection is launched, you have the trouble of removing crew from a collection and all the threshold reward headaches associated with that.
On the topic of costumed (and internal consistency);
In The Big Goodbye collection, Satin Dress Lily and Cyrus Redblock don't have costumed, while the others do. Cyrus makes sense - he's a holographic character wearing clothes appropriate to the character and he's not 'playing' anyone. But Lily should have Costumed for the same reason that Tommy Gun Dixon does and they're from the exact same scene.
In The Bride of Chaotica collection, Lonzak, Chaotica and Satan's Robot are not costumed. Makes sense, they are holographic characters, not role-playing in dress. Buster Kincaid Kim, Captain Proton Paris and Arachnia Janeway have Costumed. Makes sense, they are role-playing in the holodeck. BUT The President of Earth is not Costumed and I believe he should be. He is playing a role in the holodeck, dressed in a way he would not otherwise be. He definitely falls more into line with the other crew members than with a character in a program.
In Our Man Bashir collection, the two "real people" in the collection, Bashir, Julian Bashir and Garak, Elim Garak both have Costumed. Makes sense. But of the other five crew who are holographic characters, two are costumed (Falcon, Anastasia) and three are not (Honey Bare, Noah, Duchamps). If we're keeping with the consistency of the other vanity/holodeck collections where real people playing a role are costumed and holographic characters are not, Falcon O'Brien and Anastasia Komananov should have the Costumed trait removed.
In The Wild West collection, they all have the Costumed trait. If you want to keep the real vs hologram logic, Frank Hollander should lose the trait, as he was a holographic character who only shared Data's appearance. I don't know the backstory of the STT originals in this collection, but going by their Human and organic traits, I'll assume that Costumed makes sense.
TLDR - The game's internal logic of how Costumed is applied seems inconsistent. If real person playing role = costumed and non-sentient holographic character = not costumed, then the following changes (only based on existing collection groupings) should be made -
Logician Solok has Costumed trait added. Niners Worf has Costumed trait added. Niners Sisko has Costumed trait added. Satin Dress Lily Sloane has Costumed trait added. The President of Earth has Costumed trait added. Frank Hollander has Costumed trait removed. Falcon O'Brien has Costumed trait removed. Anastasia Komananov has Costumed trait removed.
Certainly one can argue individual crew and whether or not they should have the trait, but the above suggestions are just from looking at existing collection groupings.
Makes sense, as I've been baffled by the inconsistency around the costumed trait for years. The only one in that list who is a little debatable to me is President of Earth, since Doc is a holographic character who never actually gets dressed.
The even bigger inconsistency is the application of other traits while in costume. Without digging too deep, Detective Dixon Hill has the Federation & Starfleet traits, while RAF O'Brien does not. Both crew are still part of the Federation and enlisted in Starfleet even while they are on break and fully immersed in a holo program for R&R. How characters are considered when in costume needs to be more consistent as well.
On the topic of costumed (and internal consistency);
In The Big Goodbye collection, Satin Dress Lily and Cyrus Redblock don't have costumed, while the others do. Cyrus makes sense - he's a holographic character wearing clothes appropriate to the character and he's not 'playing' anyone. But Lily should have Costumed for the same reason that Tommy Gun Dixon does and they're from the exact same scene.
In The Bride of Chaotica collection, Lonzak, Chaotica and Satan's Robot are not costumed. Makes sense, they are holographic characters, not role-playing in dress. Buster Kincaid Kim, Captain Proton Paris and Arachnia Janeway have Costumed. Makes sense, they are role-playing in the holodeck. BUT The President of Earth is not Costumed and I believe he should be. He is playing a role in the holodeck, dressed in a way he would not otherwise be. He definitely falls more into line with the other crew members than with a character in a program.
In Our Man Bashir collection, the two "real people" in the collection, Bashir, Julian Bashir and Garak, Elim Garak both have Costumed. Makes sense. But of the other five crew who are holographic characters, two are costumed (Falcon, Anastasia) and three are not (Honey Bare, Noah, Duchamps). If we're keeping with the consistency of the other vanity/holodeck collections where real people playing a role are costumed and holographic characters are not, Falcon O'Brien and Anastasia Komananov should have the Costumed trait removed.
In The Wild West collection, they all have the Costumed trait. If you want to keep the real vs hologram logic, Frank Hollander should lose the trait, as he was a holographic character who only shared Data's appearance. I don't know the backstory of the STT originals in this collection, but going by their Human and organic traits, I'll assume that Costumed makes sense.
TLDR - The game's internal logic of how Costumed is applied seems inconsistent. If real person playing role = costumed and non-sentient holographic character = not costumed, then the following changes (only based on existing collection groupings) should be made -
Logician Solok has Costumed trait added. Niners Worf has Costumed trait added. Niners Sisko has Costumed trait added. Satin Dress Lily Sloane has Costumed trait added. The President of Earth has Costumed trait added. Frank Hollander has Costumed trait removed. Falcon O'Brien has Costumed trait removed. Anastasia Komananov has Costumed trait removed.
Certainly one can argue individual crew and whether or not they should have the trait, but the above suggestions are just from looking at existing collection groupings.
Makes sense, as I've been baffled by the inconsistency around the costumed trait for years. The only one in that list who is a little debatable to me is President of Earth, since Doc is a holographic character who never actually gets dressed.
The even bigger inconsistency is the application of other traits while in costume. Without digging too deep, Detective Dixon Hill has the Federation & Starfleet traits, while RAF O'Brien does not. Both crew are still part of the Federation and enlisted in Starfleet even while they are on break and fully immersed in a holo program for R&R. How characters are considered when in costume needs to be more consistent as well.
I thought about that for Doc, but his whole story arc is about how he's more than the sum of his programming and should be treated like 'flesh and blood' instead of hologram. But even the game's internal logic on Doc + Costumed is inconsistent. Tee Time Doctor is Costumed, but Author Doctor, Virtuoso Doctor, and President of Earth are not.
As for the rest, an entire trait audit would be very exhaustive. I'd rather they focus on bite sized (collection) chunks going forward because A. it's easier for them and more likely to get done B. those traits are more relevant if there's an associated collection C. trying to remove traits after a crew is in a collection can cause technical issues for them.
As for the rest, an entire trait audit would be very exhaustive. I'd rather they focus on bite sized (collection) chunks going forward because A. it's easier for them and more likely to get done B. those traits are more relevant if there's an associated collection C. trying to remove traits after a crew is in a collection can cause technical issues for them.
That would make a lot of sense, but with crew retrieval it might be an issue, at least for trait removals. People will save up polestars for a long time and then they might not be able to get the crew that they wanted, because one of the traits was removed.
Anyone considered that more traits (especially on low level crew) make it harder to target a specific 5*? Maybe we should refrain from asking for extra traits for 1 to 4 star crew.
Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
On the topic of costumed (and internal consistency);
In The Big Goodbye collection, Satin Dress Lily and Cyrus Redblock don't have costumed, while the others do. Cyrus makes sense - he's a holographic character wearing clothes appropriate to the character and he's not 'playing' anyone. But Lily should have Costumed for the same reason that Tommy Gun Dixon does and they're from the exact same scene.
In The Bride of Chaotica collection, Lonzak, Chaotica and Satan's Robot are not costumed. Makes sense, they are holographic characters, not role-playing in dress. Buster Kincaid Kim, Captain Proton Paris and Arachnia Janeway have Costumed. Makes sense, they are role-playing in the holodeck. BUT The President of Earth is not Costumed and I believe he should be. He is playing a role in the holodeck, dressed in a way he would not otherwise be. He definitely falls more into line with the other crew members than with a character in a program.
In Our Man Bashir collection, the two "real people" in the collection, Bashir, Julian Bashir and Garak, Elim Garak both have Costumed. Makes sense. But of the other five crew who are holographic characters, two are costumed (Falcon, Anastasia) and three are not (Honey Bare, Noah, Duchamps). If we're keeping with the consistency of the other vanity/holodeck collections where real people playing a role are costumed and holographic characters are not, Falcon O'Brien and Anastasia Komananov should have the Costumed trait removed.
In The Wild West collection, they all have the Costumed trait. If you want to keep the real vs hologram logic, Frank Hollander should lose the trait, as he was a holographic character who only shared Data's appearance. I don't know the backstory of the STT originals in this collection, but going by their Human and organic traits, I'll assume that Costumed makes sense.
TLDR - The game's internal logic of how Costumed is applied seems inconsistent. If real person playing role = costumed and non-sentient holographic character = not costumed, then the following changes (only based on existing collection groupings) should be made -
Logician Solok has Costumed trait added. Niners Worf has Costumed trait added. Niners Sisko has Costumed trait added. Satin Dress Lily Sloane has Costumed trait added. The President of Earth has Costumed trait added. Frank Hollander has Costumed trait removed. Falcon O'Brien has Costumed trait removed. Anastasia Komananov has Costumed trait removed.
Certainly one can argue individual crew and whether or not they should have the trait, but the above suggestions are just from looking at existing collection groupings.
Makes sense, as I've been baffled by the inconsistency around the costumed trait for years. The only one in that list who is a little debatable to me is President of Earth, since Doc is a holographic character who never actually gets dressed.
The even bigger inconsistency is the application of other traits while in costume. Without digging too deep, Detective Dixon Hill has the Federation & Starfleet traits, while RAF O'Brien does not. Both crew are still part of the Federation and enlisted in Starfleet even while they are on break and fully immersed in a holo program for R&R. How characters are considered when in costume needs to be more consistent as well.
I thought about that for Doc, but his whole story arc is about how he's more than the sum of his programming and should be treated like 'flesh and blood' instead of hologram. But even the game's internal logic on Doc + Costumed is inconsistent. Tee Time Doctor is Costumed, but Author Doctor, Virtuoso Doctor, and President of Earth are not.
As for the rest, an entire trait audit would be very exhaustive. I'd rather they focus on bite sized (collection) chunks going forward because A. it's easier for them and more likely to get done B. those traits are more relevant if there's an associated collection C. trying to remove traits after a crew is in a collection can cause technical issues for them.
I’d argue that Virtuoso Doc wouldn’t be “costumed.” He’s dressing differently from his usual working outfit when singing, sure, but would we say Luciano Pavarotti is wearing a costume while he performs?
I’d have to re-watch Author, Author to say if the Author Doc would likewise not technically be in a costume. It’s a fine line that could be argued either way, if I am remembering the episode correctly.
Should Grand Nagus Rom have the Bajoran trait? While I realize all the Roms have the Bajoran trait, this card is him becoming the financial leader of the Ferengi; I think he loses his Bajoran citizenship then.
Comments
Shan, can we get word, one way or the other, on this?
Thanks
Last time I mentioned it there was a discussion on what survivalist ultimately means, but when looking at the crew that has that trait, a lot of them seem to have it because they fought to survive/proved hard to kill/adapted to difficult circumstances (Klingon Janeway, Klingon Neelix, Ripper...) which is basically the main feature of her character in those episodes.
#JusticeForKlingonBrideParis
🖖🏿🖖🏾🖖🏽🖖🏼🖖🏻🖖
Typo. This is meant to be Astrophysicist and has been corrected in the server release notes post
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
Yay that did it. Thanks.
Tyvm
Much obliged.
She's a counselor. As a psychologist she has an MD, so she's a doctor, but she's not a physician.
If Gillian Taylor, Agnes Jurati and Roger Korby (among others) qualify for the trait, i’d say she comes close enough
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
I think the fight should be about them having it removed rather than it getting added to Cornwall...
I remember it being discussed when Jurati was released.
If “Senator” was removed from Cretak and Vreenak, shouldn’t they get the “Politician” trait now?
Both Brahms cards should have the “Innovator” trait added. She was at the forefront of warp coil design. That’s why Geordi ever “met” her. And being at the forefront of any field, by definition, means you are an innovator.
Thanks again for all your hard work, Shan...
I think it depends on how WRG defines “Doctor.” Psychiatrists have an MD; clinical psychologists generally have a PhD. Both are doctors, but different kinds of doctor.
I agree with Jurati and Korby, but I've always thought Taylor deserves the trait. With humpbacks recognised as sentient that makes George and Gracie Federation citizens, and as the only one qualified to provide them with any kind of medical care that makes her a (very specialised) physician. 20th century Gillian (if we ever get her) probably shouldn't have the trait.
Whichever kind of doctor she is (I may well have got those confused) she's not a physician. Even if she's an MD it's a completely different specialty.
He has it now. You might have to reset your game to see it like I did.
If she's a MD, she IS a physician. Everything established about her makes her sound like a MD.
Niners Kira Nerys - Costumed
Niners Rom - Costumed
Umpire Odo - Costumed
Logician Solok - Not Costumed
Niners Worf - Not Costumed
Niners Sisko - Not Costumed
@WRG Carmen - we beseech you, please save us before the Costumed collection comes and apply it (consistently) to those last three crew.
In The Big Goodbye collection, Satin Dress Lily and Cyrus Redblock don't have costumed, while the others do. Cyrus makes sense - he's a holographic character wearing clothes appropriate to the character and he's not 'playing' anyone. But Lily should have Costumed for the same reason that Tommy Gun Dixon does and they're from the exact same scene.
In The Bride of Chaotica collection, Lonzak, Chaotica and Satan's Robot are not costumed. Makes sense, they are holographic characters, not role-playing in dress. Buster Kincaid Kim, Captain Proton Paris and Arachnia Janeway have Costumed. Makes sense, they are role-playing in the holodeck. BUT The President of Earth is not Costumed and I believe he should be. He is playing a role in the holodeck, dressed in a way he would not otherwise be. He definitely falls more into line with the other crew members than with a character in a program.
In Our Man Bashir collection, the two "real people" in the collection, Bashir, Julian Bashir and Garak, Elim Garak both have Costumed. Makes sense. But of the other five crew who are holographic characters, two are costumed (Falcon, Anastasia) and three are not (Honey Bare, Noah, Duchamps). If we're keeping with the consistency of the other vanity/holodeck collections where real people playing a role are costumed and holographic characters are not, Falcon O'Brien and Anastasia Komananov should have the Costumed trait removed.
In The Wild West collection, they all have the Costumed trait. If you want to keep the real vs hologram logic, Frank Hollander should lose the trait, as he was a holographic character who only shared Data's appearance. I don't know the backstory of the STT originals in this collection, but going by their Human and organic traits, I'll assume that Costumed makes sense.
TLDR - The game's internal logic of how Costumed is applied seems inconsistent. If real person playing role = costumed and non-sentient holographic character = not costumed, then the following changes (only based on existing collection groupings) should be made -
Logician Solok has Costumed trait added.
Niners Worf has Costumed trait added.
Niners Sisko has Costumed trait added.
Satin Dress Lily Sloane has Costumed trait added.
The President of Earth has Costumed trait added.
Frank Hollander has Costumed trait removed.
Falcon O'Brien has Costumed trait removed.
Anastasia Komananov has Costumed trait removed.
Certainly one can argue individual crew and whether or not they should have the trait, but the above suggestions are just from looking at existing collection groupings.
edit: I'd recommend going forward a single-trait audit for whatever trait's collection is being added. It is a much more manageable bite for the team to sift through and if it's done after a collection is launched, you have the trouble of removing crew from a collection and all the threshold reward headaches associated with that.
Makes sense, as I've been baffled by the inconsistency around the costumed trait for years. The only one in that list who is a little debatable to me is President of Earth, since Doc is a holographic character who never actually gets dressed.
The even bigger inconsistency is the application of other traits while in costume. Without digging too deep, Detective Dixon Hill has the Federation & Starfleet traits, while RAF O'Brien does not. Both crew are still part of the Federation and enlisted in Starfleet even while they are on break and fully immersed in a holo program for R&R. How characters are considered when in costume needs to be more consistent as well.
I thought about that for Doc, but his whole story arc is about how he's more than the sum of his programming and should be treated like 'flesh and blood' instead of hologram. But even the game's internal logic on Doc + Costumed is inconsistent. Tee Time Doctor is Costumed, but Author Doctor, Virtuoso Doctor, and President of Earth are not.
As for the rest, an entire trait audit would be very exhaustive. I'd rather they focus on bite sized (collection) chunks going forward because A. it's easier for them and more likely to get done B. those traits are more relevant if there's an associated collection C. trying to remove traits after a crew is in a collection can cause technical issues for them.
That would make a lot of sense, but with crew retrieval it might be an issue, at least for trait removals. People will save up polestars for a long time and then they might not be able to get the crew that they wanted, because one of the traits was removed.
I’d argue that Virtuoso Doc wouldn’t be “costumed.” He’s dressing differently from his usual working outfit when singing, sure, but would we say Luciano Pavarotti is wearing a costume while he performs?
I’d have to re-watch Author, Author to say if the Author Doc would likewise not technically be in a costume. It’s a fine line that could be argued either way, if I am remembering the episode correctly.
Human.
Loyal.
Accused.
Annoyed.
Damned.
Victims.
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!