Day 2. I use yesterday buy again button. I get stuff. I didnt use stuff. They took stuff back. They took all my stuff which I had before. I pay for monthly card. I pay for campaign. I can't get what I paid. THAT is exploit. On multiple accounts. Thank you TP for show who you really are.
Oh dear. I woke up this morning and thought TP were giving us all a hand in jump-starting the new mechanic. I hit the "claim" button (mine didn't say "buy again"), saw my loot, and the button just kept saying "claim". The text below said something about "limit 19" so I hit it until it went away. Then I saw the cyclone of excrement here.
Let me add my voice to the masses. I cannot comprehend how this is any player's fault. I constantly have to identify Spock or Kirk or Sisko to prove my lack of nanoprobes (presumably because after playing this game for 5 years I know how to time my button-presses to skip through all the time-wasting animations), so why wasn't there a similar check in place for this pack?
"There are two types of beings in the universe - those who dance, and those who do not."
Oh dear. I woke up this morning and thought TP were giving us all a hand in jump-starting the new mechanic. I hit the "claim" button (mine didn't say "buy again"), saw my loot, and the button just kept saying "claim". The text below said something about "limit 19" so I hit it until it went away. Then I saw the cyclone of excrement here.
Let me add my voice to the masses. I cannot comprehend how this is any player's fault. I constantly have to identify Spock or Kirk or Sisko to prove my lack of nanoprobes (presumably because after playing this game for 5 years I know how to time my button-presses to skip through all the time-wasting animations), so why wasn't there a similar check in place for this pack?
If yours had a "limit 19" text, it was probably the "fix" that they did so they didn't risk the "Buy Again" fiasco from the first few minutes after the noon ET reset from happening again. So if you didn't do it right after the event started, I think you used it as it *currently* is set up.
Just for info. When i logged into the game at event start i got a message to accept targeted advertising or not. I chose no.
Then i went to the event to share crew as i was squadon leader. It said. Join a squadron. I was not in the fleet anymore. Paniced, warned squardon mates through discord. Restarted. Same problem. Rebooted and i was back in fleet.
All of thisafter waking up from alarm since event start is in the middle of the night. With wife unhappy waking up from that alarm and because of the light of my phone.
Checking for new packages and half asleep clicking on this one. Nice, free gifts.
Hey, a tribbles message, but i had those several times this week when building equipment. Also got a stuck voyage and claiming 3rd arena awards freezes phone constantly. Alsogot purchase failed messages ( but goods still delivered).
There are so many bugs and often the reply is. It has no priority.
Last timelines talk Ben stated that although he had finaly recreayed the voyage stuck bug, his account was used for something else and now could not be used to solve this.
Al this looks like incompetance.
Fix your bugs. Do not introduce new complications.
Doctors who test the covid19 vaccine do not use the same patient to test cancer medicine or a new experimental hairgrowth product
But stt introduces new bugs on an almost daily basis and i encounter existing problems on a daily basis..
And some like todays could easily have been prevented by someone taking a close look at the screen users would see before making it active.
THAT BUTTON WAS VERY OBVIOUS
TP bought STT from DB. What first request from new shareholders? Usualy it's 'Make Us more money!'. 2nd and 3rd requests are usually the same. It's ok. Ppl invested money and want them back +profit.
Most money F2P games make from so called whales. It's less 1% of players that bring most of money. Whales buy all/most discounted propositions but most money they spend on full price dill market. So TP managment decided to cut discounted propositions. We (players) get 2 cheap packs of dill on skirmishes instead of 5, 15 packs + dill cost more etc. The big idead is that whales will spend more on fullprice market to get the same level of dominance. I know a little about economics. Mainly in macroeconomics. I have a scientific publications. But I also understand something in microeconomics. I can say that this method of solving problem is… debatable. To do so one have to be sure in GROWING popularity of a product. This time the plan backfired. Because of strong STT players community and because this method lead to bigger gap between whales and others whales started to lose interest and start leaving the game. I know that at least a few $25k+ whales left lately.
Reaction from shareholders was obvious. They wanted more mpney. Not less money.
Managment probably said something like 'do not worry! we are adding a whole new currency system to a game! that will bring lots of money!'
Looks like managment pushed this new feature to a earlier release date because of that. As a result it has bugs. The moment they realized they lost money because of that 'buy again' glitch they started panic. And to show their active position as a fighters for shareholders' money in a game with already disappointed community they bann. They punished all and every1 who used this 'buy again' button at least 1 time. Big managment mistake. They stripped punished players from new currency completely. Stripped from constellations. Stripped from polestars. To a zero. Not to a pre-glitch numbers. Another mistake. And they did it to not yet banned players. Not to already banned players. Players saw it, were shocked and after that banned. Doubledamage in a short period of time. Big mistake. After that they saw a community reaction and responded with 'many players made a few additional claims without understanding there was an exploit, and those people will suffer no repercussions'. That's a lie. There are players who did it ONCE and get banned. They also said 'It was a necessity due to the nature of the exploit, and the severity of its impact on the game'. Also lie. A 'captain lvl achievement' get 180k honor to much more players. Before honor sale. It's 18 random 5* characters or 4 gold beholds + 4 gold citations and 20k honor left. To a lot more players. They have banned whales now. Now that's a huge managment mistake. Also they punishe almost all players. Banned player doesnt contribute to fleet and to event. All fleet members losing fleet completition bonuses. And they lose positions in event. As a member of top fleet I asked to be cicked from fleet and changed to someone who can help keep 1st place. But my brothers stay strong! Big thx to them!
All this reactions wrong. As a managment reaction and as a human reaction both.
It's my opinion on situation. Maybe I'm wrong. Hope I'm wrong. I was ready to lose everything I got from glitch. But to be stripped of al isp, polestars and constelations and be banned after that? I'm not returning to a game untill I get everything back, unbanned and compensated.
Agree with Ejachok. Plus we pay for monthly card, but we don't get any dill. Plus we pay for premium campaign but we don't get rewards. Who exploit who? I didn't use any of "stollen" stuff. But they take all my "before" stuff. Unfair in so many ways. I don't want rage quit after 4 and half years, but I have 3 days to think if it's worthy to continue.
Ejachok, your English is just fine. Your analysis, IMVHO, is even better.
I’m a capitalist at heart. I support the profit motive. I don’t support unsustainable greed, or leveraged buyout artists who buy businesses to squeeze them dry and strip them for parts. Profit motive is great. But a business has to provide a fair trade for a good or service. If it doesn’t, someone else will.
The honest truth is that no one needs this game. It doesn’t feed, clothe or house anyone. It is a luxury for each and every one of us. It provides entertainment. So do literally a million other diversions for anyone who can afford to spend time and/or money on the game. When it stops being fun and becomes boring, or as in the instant case insulting and abusive to its customers, we can and willl leave. Either way, because the game provides only entertainment and not survival, it exists on OUR sufferance. We are not here as WRG’s barely tolerated guests.
it's obvious what you need to do is fire the ones that make the mistake and hire the ones that exploited the mistake
I disagree. To me it look like programmers were pushed to rush update so they made mistakes. That's not uncommon. CD project Red is a latest famous example.
Now managment is another story.
All of this after waking up from alarm since event start is in the middle of the night. With wife unhappy waking up from that alarm and because of the light of my phone.
Checking for new packages and half asleep clicking on this one. Nice, free gifts.
...
THAT BUTTON WAS VERY OBVIOUS
I also set an alarm so I could wake up to start the event. This easily could have been me, had I woken up a little quicker...
I feel for you.
In my half awake state, I will see a big yellow button on my phone screen much more easily than smaller "limit once daily" type.
This pack was announced as being available once per day and displayed a purchase limit of 1. The fact that it was claimable more than once was clearly a bug.
Yep, it was a bug, a nice one to be honest. But you know what? It was your bug, your lack of testing. You should punish yourself.
We understand that many players made a few additional claims without understanding there was an exploit, and those people will suffer no repercussions for their actions. However there were also players who exploited the issue to a degree that was not acceptable.
Yep, I was one of those who “exploited the issue to a degree that was not acceptable” 54 times. I don’t feel bad or sorry for what I did. It’s still on you guys. 72 hour ban? I don’t give a **tsk tsk**. I will hit threshold either way. But if you ban actual cheaters/exploiters that use bots and mods to be in top 50 for 8 hours that this is just based on money, nothing else. Those who actively exploit this game are also ones who spend the most money on it.
@Shan, any chance that your devs forgot the "Do Not Touch" sign when they released this code's iteration? Maybe they also forgot to hook up the battery too?
In the immortal words of Spock: "Live long and prosper"
it's obvious what you need to do is fire the ones that make the mistake and hire the ones that exploited the mistake
I disagree. To me it look like programmers were pushed to rush update so they made mistakes. That's not uncommon. CD project Red is a latest famous example.
Now managment is another story.
I don’t claim to know the inner workings of TP/WRG, but I know the kinds of decisions made by ego driven middle managers sniffing for bonuses. This would be one of those.
I went to bed hoping to wake up to seeing this Issue resolved in a reasonable manner. Sadly it hasn’t and it seems TP are doubling down on their position.
For those (like me) who feel strongly about this I would suggest posting on your social media platforms of choice and/or App Store to make it clear to TP and by association CBS that loyal Star Trek fans are being treated in a draconian and unfair manner.
I think public condemnation wider than the Forum mayhave an affect as will hit TP reputationally and in their pockets.
If I had any contacts in journalism I would, be contacting them too, but I am a mere lowly pleb and don’t know anyone wider who can help.
Wonder how John de Lancie will feel about being associated with this less thanpleasing debacle?
Looks like the community needs to call this out widely please.
Dear Shan, an immediate 3 day ban is way too harsh and you can't tell me that the "exploitation" and the impact on the game is sooo big.
I'm taking a step back and won't EVER be as much involved in the game as I used to.
For the future I give you advice. The players are your costumers, treat them friendly.
Best regards
All of this after waking up from alarm since event start is in the middle of the night. With wife unhappy waking up from that alarm and because of the light of my phone.
Checking for new packages and half asleep clicking on this one. Nice, free gifts.
...
THAT BUTTON WAS VERY OBVIOUS
I also set an alarm so I could wake up to start the event. This easily could have been me, had I woken up a little quicker...
I feel for you.
In my half awake state, I will see a big yellow button on my phone screen much more easily than smaller "limit once daily" type.
I frequently play with my glasses off, since the prism in the prescription can give me a headache when doing close work. I sometimes take them off when working on my models for the same reason. The tiny text is a problem. At anything more than a hand's breadth, I can't read it. "Buy Again" and "Continue" would look exactly the same to me and non-working buttons/exits aren't unheard of in their work lately. Hitting it until I got fed up and looked would have been a real possibility.
W.W. CarlislePlayed since January 20, 2019Captain Level- 99 (May 9, 2022)VIP 14Crew Quarters: 485/485Most recent/Lowest- Anbo-jyutsu Kyle Riker (1/5* Lvl 30) 5/29/23Immortalized x-866 5* x184, 4* x 490, 3* x91, 2* x62, and 1* x27Most recent Immortal - Tearful Janeway 4* 5/25/23Current non-event project- Improving my Science base skill. Retrieval Project- Mestral 1/5*
I took the free pack, wanted to buy it again and clicked on "Buy", then received it again for free and was happy. I thought maybe it was a hidden gift for the players who are spending a lot of money here that they are now getting some extra free. That was probably not the case. So it was a programming mistake by TP. And that's why I've been banned now! Are you serious about punishing players for wanting to spend money and only you guys have made a mistake?
But that was nothing new either. Legendaries were previously unmentioned and hidden in small packs for 5 dollars, which were bought 5 or 10 times in order to own the legendaries FF, older players here will remember that. I don't know whether it was a mistake or a hidden reward, but nobody was punished as a result.
I maxed first my avatar here, Mirror Saru, expensive. Currently my avatar is Sord, which was only available to buy, I had to buy crew seats again, and all that not only with this account. All this money I spend to get advantage over others from these Crewman, and that's OK because I'm paying you for it. If I get something from you offered for free like the Daily Retrieve Pack, which gives me an advantage, that's OK for you too. In summary: it is not reprehensible to gain an advantage, it is actually the point in the game to be able to progress a little faster. Your argument that you want to gain an advantage by calling up a free pack multiple times makes otherwise desired behavior this time something very questionable. Your reasoning is meaningless and has nothing to do with your behavior.
Like many others, I don't want to be p** off by you any more as a thanks for my money and playing your game.
Correction: we all don't buy anything from you, because we don't own it, everything is only rented, as soon as we are out of the game we don't ow any more.
My last comment and I’ll go back to lurking bc y’all are too much.
TP is NOT responsible for how a different company handled prior exploits.
Truly a shameful day for this forum and player base.
Guess you don’t look at UC that often. UC is often a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I’m outraged and I didn’t get the chance to grab this pack more than once. Now TP is offering a take 19 copies of this pack. If TP can’t put in a limit of 1 correctly, how are they going to put in a limit of 19?
They didn't. I came to the game, saw the 19 limit. Clicked. 18 clicks later, the offer was gone.
Probably because i allready had claimed the original offer for the day, but still.
Can we all agree that getting multiple pack isn't game breaking at all, except for whale since quantum regeneration rate is really low...
I would have kind of understand this ban but the fact that they just gave to all player the thing that ban all the other one is beyond understanding...
Doing this ansmd keeping people ban is some really sadistic thing to do...
I am guilty for getting like 20 because i was like " the button is still here and working, i suppose i can keep using it then." I was so wrong.
As somebody who juste came back on the game after years, it's really bad management and doesn't give me the will to continue or invest any kind of money in the game.
We're starting to lose people - our friends, good people, not cheaters, and your big spenders. Come one. Rethink this. You're in the wrong on this one.
Can we all agree that getting multiple pack isn't game breaking at all, except for whale since quantum regeneration rate is really low...
I would have kind of understand this ban but the fact that they just gave to all player the thing that ban all the other one is beyond understanding...
Doing this ansmd keeping people ban is some really sadistic thing to do...
I am guilty for getting like 20 because i was like " the button is still here and working, i suppose i can keep using it then." I was so wrong.
As somebody who juste came back on the game after years, it's really bad management and doesn't give me the will to continue or invest any kind of money in the game.
Because they don't understand how people play their own game and they certainly don't understand their own currencies. Ben was saying in that video (whilst drinking alcohol, very professional btw) that they review their currencies - they clearly do not or they'd know that we have so much we will spam click a good offer. We spam click buy again because we've been trained to do that. Whether it's credits, dilithium or Ben's. The offer to buy again seemed like a good one. Five or so presses in, I start to think, Hmm, what's being deducted here.
I get a ban and everyone that hasn't been banned gets at least ten more of what I got for 'free' from THEIR bug.
The "severity of its impact on the game" (as Shan called it) is not there! They upped the number of tries by 20 after one day. 20! So by doing that it seems the feature was not well thought despite the long planning time. Tiny adjustments ok, but this is by numbers massive. But ok, maybe they turned the bug into a feature.
Also the not banned players will get more in the time of the ban than nearly all so-called exploiters got out of the bug in the first place. So if there is a severe impact it is for the gameplay of the punished players. Cause in case they do come back they will even have less than before...
Comments
Let me add my voice to the masses. I cannot comprehend how this is any player's fault. I constantly have to identify Spock or Kirk or Sisko to prove my lack of nanoprobes (presumably because after playing this game for 5 years I know how to time my button-presses to skip through all the time-wasting animations), so why wasn't there a similar check in place for this pack?
If yours had a "limit 19" text, it was probably the "fix" that they did so they didn't risk the "Buy Again" fiasco from the first few minutes after the noon ET reset from happening again. So if you didn't do it right after the event started, I think you used it as it *currently* is set up.
It's supposed to depend on if you already took a pack or two or 80 earlier in the day, but no one ever told us that either.
Then i went to the event to share crew as i was squadon leader. It said. Join a squadron. I was not in the fleet anymore. Paniced, warned squardon mates through discord. Restarted. Same problem. Rebooted and i was back in fleet.
All of thisafter waking up from alarm since event start is in the middle of the night. With wife unhappy waking up from that alarm and because of the light of my phone.
Checking for new packages and half asleep clicking on this one. Nice, free gifts.
Hey, a tribbles message, but i had those several times this week when building equipment. Also got a stuck voyage and claiming 3rd arena awards freezes phone constantly. Alsogot purchase failed messages ( but goods still delivered).
There are so many bugs and often the reply is. It has no priority.
Last timelines talk Ben stated that although he had finaly recreayed the voyage stuck bug, his account was used for something else and now could not be used to solve this.
Al this looks like incompetance.
Fix your bugs. Do not introduce new complications.
Doctors who test the covid19 vaccine do not use the same patient to test cancer medicine or a new experimental hairgrowth product
But stt introduces new bugs on an almost daily basis and i encounter existing problems on a daily basis..
And some like todays could easily have been prevented by someone taking a close look at the screen users would see before making it active.
THAT BUTTON WAS VERY OBVIOUS
TP bought STT from DB. What first request from new shareholders? Usualy it's 'Make Us more money!'. 2nd and 3rd requests are usually the same. It's ok. Ppl invested money and want them back +profit.
Most money F2P games make from so called whales. It's less 1% of players that bring most of money. Whales buy all/most discounted propositions but most money they spend on full price dill market. So TP managment decided to cut discounted propositions. We (players) get 2 cheap packs of dill on skirmishes instead of 5, 15 packs + dill cost more etc. The big idead is that whales will spend more on fullprice market to get the same level of dominance. I know a little about economics. Mainly in macroeconomics. I have a scientific publications. But I also understand something in microeconomics. I can say that this method of solving problem is… debatable. To do so one have to be sure in GROWING popularity of a product. This time the plan backfired. Because of strong STT players community and because this method lead to bigger gap between whales and others whales started to lose interest and start leaving the game. I know that at least a few $25k+ whales left lately.
Reaction from shareholders was obvious. They wanted more mpney. Not less money.
Managment probably said something like 'do not worry! we are adding a whole new currency system to a game! that will bring lots of money!'
Looks like managment pushed this new feature to a earlier release date because of that. As a result it has bugs. The moment they realized they lost money because of that 'buy again' glitch they started panic. And to show their active position as a fighters for shareholders' money in a game with already disappointed community they bann. They punished all and every1 who used this 'buy again' button at least 1 time. Big managment mistake. They stripped punished players from new currency completely. Stripped from constellations. Stripped from polestars. To a zero. Not to a pre-glitch numbers. Another mistake. And they did it to not yet banned players. Not to already banned players. Players saw it, were shocked and after that banned. Doubledamage in a short period of time. Big mistake. After that they saw a community reaction and responded with 'many players made a few additional claims without understanding there was an exploit, and those people will suffer no repercussions'. That's a lie. There are players who did it ONCE and get banned. They also said 'It was a necessity due to the nature of the exploit, and the severity of its impact on the game'. Also lie. A 'captain lvl achievement' get 180k honor to much more players. Before honor sale. It's 18 random 5* characters or 4 gold beholds + 4 gold citations and 20k honor left. To a lot more players. They have banned whales now. Now that's a huge managment mistake. Also they punishe almost all players. Banned player doesnt contribute to fleet and to event. All fleet members losing fleet completition bonuses. And they lose positions in event. As a member of top fleet I asked to be cicked from fleet and changed to someone who can help keep 1st place. But my brothers stay strong! Big thx to them!
All this reactions wrong. As a managment reaction and as a human reaction both.
It's my opinion on situation. Maybe I'm wrong. Hope I'm wrong. I was ready to lose everything I got from glitch. But to be stripped of al isp, polestars and constelations and be banned after that? I'm not returning to a game untill I get everything back, unbanned and compensated.
Sorry for my bad English
I’m a capitalist at heart. I support the profit motive. I don’t support unsustainable greed, or leveraged buyout artists who buy businesses to squeeze them dry and strip them for parts. Profit motive is great. But a business has to provide a fair trade for a good or service. If it doesn’t, someone else will.
The honest truth is that no one needs this game. It doesn’t feed, clothe or house anyone. It is a luxury for each and every one of us. It provides entertainment. So do literally a million other diversions for anyone who can afford to spend time and/or money on the game. When it stops being fun and becomes boring, or as in the instant case insulting and abusive to its customers, we can and willl leave. Either way, because the game provides only entertainment and not survival, it exists on OUR sufferance. We are not here as WRG’s barely tolerated guests.
I disagree. To me it look like programmers were pushed to rush update so they made mistakes. That's not uncommon. CD project Red is a latest famous example.
Now managment is another story.
I also set an alarm so I could wake up to start the event. This easily could have been me, had I woken up a little quicker...
I feel for you.
In my half awake state, I will see a big yellow button on my phone screen much more easily than smaller "limit once daily" type.
Yep, it was a bug, a nice one to be honest. But you know what? It was your bug, your lack of testing. You should punish yourself.
Yep, I was one of those who “exploited the issue to a degree that was not acceptable” 54 times. I don’t feel bad or sorry for what I did. It’s still on you guys. 72 hour ban? I don’t give a **tsk tsk**. I will hit threshold either way. But if you ban actual cheaters/exploiters that use bots and mods to be in top 50 for 8 hours that this is just based on money, nothing else. Those who actively exploit this game are also ones who spend the most money on it.
So yeah TP/WRG. **tsk tsk** you.
@Shan, any chance that your devs forgot the "Do Not Touch" sign when they released this code's iteration? Maybe they also forgot to hook up the battery too?
I don’t claim to know the inner workings of TP/WRG, but I know the kinds of decisions made by ego driven middle managers sniffing for bonuses. This would be one of those.
For those (like me) who feel strongly about this I would suggest posting on your social media platforms of choice and/or App Store to make it clear to TP and by association CBS that loyal Star Trek fans are being treated in a draconian and unfair manner.
I think public condemnation wider than the Forum mayhave an affect as will hit TP reputationally and in their pockets.
If I had any contacts in journalism I would, be contacting them too, but I am a mere lowly pleb and don’t know anyone wider who can help.
Wonder how John de Lancie will feel about being associated with this less thanpleasing debacle?
Looks like the community needs to call this out widely please.
Thanks
I'm taking a step back and won't EVER be as much involved in the game as I used to.
For the future I give you advice. The players are your costumers, treat them friendly.
Best regards
Your English is great. Easy to understand what you're saying. In fact it's better than alot of DB/TP communication.
I frequently play with my glasses off, since the prism in the prescription can give me a headache when doing close work. I sometimes take them off when working on my models for the same reason. The tiny text is a problem. At anything more than a hand's breadth, I can't read it. "Buy Again" and "Continue" would look exactly the same to me and non-working buttons/exits aren't unheard of in their work lately. Hitting it until I got fed up and looked would have been a real possibility.
But that was nothing new either. Legendaries were previously unmentioned and hidden in small packs for 5 dollars, which were bought 5 or 10 times in order to own the legendaries FF, older players here will remember that. I don't know whether it was a mistake or a hidden reward, but nobody was punished as a result.
I maxed first my avatar here, Mirror Saru, expensive. Currently my avatar is Sord, which was only available to buy, I had to buy crew seats again, and all that not only with this account. All this money I spend to get advantage over others from these Crewman, and that's OK because I'm paying you for it. If I get something from you offered for free like the Daily Retrieve Pack, which gives me an advantage, that's OK for you too. In summary: it is not reprehensible to gain an advantage, it is actually the point in the game to be able to progress a little faster. Your argument that you want to gain an advantage by calling up a free pack multiple times makes otherwise desired behavior this time something very questionable. Your reasoning is meaningless and has nothing to do with your behavior.
Like many others, I don't want to be p** off by you any more as a thanks for my money and playing your game.
Correction: we all don't buy anything from you, because we don't own it, everything is only rented, as soon as we are out of the game we don't ow any more.
They didn't. I came to the game, saw the 19 limit. Clicked. 18 clicks later, the offer was gone.
Probably because i allready had claimed the original offer for the day, but still.
I would have kind of understand this ban but the fact that they just gave to all player the thing that ban all the other one is beyond understanding...
Doing this ansmd keeping people ban is some really sadistic thing to do...
I am guilty for getting like 20 because i was like " the button is still here and working, i suppose i can keep using it then." I was so wrong.
As somebody who juste came back on the game after years, it's really bad management and doesn't give me the will to continue or invest any kind of money in the game.
Because they don't understand how people play their own game and they certainly don't understand their own currencies. Ben was saying in that video (whilst drinking alcohol, very professional btw) that they review their currencies - they clearly do not or they'd know that we have so much we will spam click a good offer. We spam click buy again because we've been trained to do that. Whether it's credits, dilithium or Ben's. The offer to buy again seemed like a good one. Five or so presses in, I start to think, Hmm, what's being deducted here.
I get a ban and everyone that hasn't been banned gets at least ten more of what I got for 'free' from THEIR bug.
It's so funny isn't it.
Also the not banned players will get more in the time of the ban than nearly all so-called exploiters got out of the bug in the first place. So if there is a severe impact it is for the gameplay of the punished players. Cause in case they do come back they will even have less than before...