Wow, Rara — I like you, and quite enjoy your posts, but I have to say I couldn't disagree with you more.
I agree the newer Bev isn't great — I think it's decent, but not great — it was a lot better than Mirror Data and other awful artwork that preceded it, so I think that's partly why it was met with a generally positive reaction. But I believe it is, as you say, a little dead-looking, compared to how it could be. I think that facially, the Dr Crusher above is leagues better — realistic-looking, fairly detailed, and looks like Ms. McFadden. (The awkward poses and bad drawings of hands that so many crew seem to have is another discussion entirely, I think, lol.)
But really, you are okay with the artwork on Laborer Spock? It looks completely lifeless to me. In fact, I think it more closely resembles a mannikin in a department store than a living person. In my opinion, it's extremely hurried work — something that looks like it was whipped out by some artist in an afternoon, whereas Commander Spock looks like it was created with astute attention to detail, with probably a fair amount of man-hours spent crafting it. One is akin to the 5-minute paintings of landscapes that the artists at county fairs will do while everyone gawks and applauds his speed... the other is more comparable to the work of a talented portrait artist.
(And let me state again for the record that I don't blame the artists here. I like to think that for the most part, they are being instructed not to spend inordinate amounts of time creating the art, and so of course the quality is going to suffer. I think most of them could probably do a lot better work if they were allowed a more reasonable time frame in which to work.)
Surak — I don't really have a huge problem with him, other than it's more of the low-detail stuff we've been getting for awhile, and I feel the shading is weird. But I don't find him "cartoony", as someone else said, nor particularly heinous. I merely ran with the "helmet hair" idea above, and had some fun with it.
But, regarding the rest...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
I guess.
I just really don't think it was better before as compared to now and I really feel that the quality varies greatly across all crew ... if you take Paris (current event crew)
2* - a perfectly boring rendition of who the character probably is on the show.
3* - the face and the rest just don't match well ... the highlights on the shirt are blue, whereas on the face white. The face is detailed, whereas the rest isn't
4* Proton - kinda neat, I like the b&w styling.
4* Medic - again, really good, not detailed at all, more in a "comics" style, good shading etc.
4* Mutated - I just really don't like the gown, it doesn't look right and does not fit with the face.
5* boring, fine I guess.
I don't think art needs to be realistic, I'm perfectly okay with an interpretation of the subject ... I'm personally a fan of low-brow/illustration art (Glenn Barr, Clayton Brothers, Travis Louie, Virgil Partch, Jim Flora to the likes of Chris Ware and Seth) ... but that interpretation needs to have continuity (see Combat Medic Paris) ... I also feel that good craftsmanship does not make great art (see for example the discussion around the 1900s between the Royal College of Art and Slades).
On top of this ... I've never watched Star Trek until Disco so have no connection with any of the historical stuff and so maybe don't feel disappointed in renditions because off it ... I just take them as they are without knowing any of the history. I have no idea what Labourer Spock looked like in the episode, but when I see the picture I think, "yeah, it works". I might feel different if I had a strong connection with the source material (I have no idea who Ms McFadden is or what she looks/looked like, how cool (or not) her character is etc. etc. etc.). I'll google her.
EDIT: read the post below this one ... I do not agree with it on so many levels ... that person basically wants to see craftsmanship/draftsmanship and not art or an artistic interpretation of characters.
e.g. T'Mir's card art is awesome (one for the best in the game in my humble opinion - I really get a sense of muted 1950/60s faded Tim Burtonesque suburbia, fits wonderfully with the advertisements of the age - it makes me want to see the episode on which that card is based just to get an understanding of the story behind the character) ... Commander T'Pol's is average at best (so cookie-cutter standard in subject matter, I couldn't care less about the episode she's from, her face has zero expression etc.).
Not sure why people are hating on the art. I tgink Surak looks fine.
To illustrate (har!) why:
Older Art / Newer Art
Something I'm having trouble understanding.
Why would they change Comm Officer Uhura's art? Why change a pre-existing art?
Or did they not change it and you were just using her as an example and took her art and
made it to how you see the current art style?
To me, the best way to illustrate this is actually to compare two of the Yartworks.
Older Art:
@Shan thanks for making this space here. I hope this really will make a difference, and that my examples are useful and constructive. Trekkies tend towards the sciencey/nerdy/artsy side so for many of us, our support and spending on a game will go where the artistic integrity is.
Some issues apply across the board and intersect in these examples. However I've attempted to use these images to illustrate (har har) some specifics.
I'm using a lot of faces because they are the focal point of the card, and the primary thing we notice & care about. However, the clothing and hair matter too:
- If you only read one of these, please make it this one. Does this card inspire me to participate, compete and/or pay for it? Would I have started playing the game if this card was presented as what was to be expected?
- Lt Commander & 1701 Jadzia: soft blended neon light in purposeful colours that go with and enhance the specific images; life-like details & gradient shading of the face; visible hairs with depth; I feel like I am looking at Jadzia/Teri Farrell.
- Mirror Jadzia: hard neon light overwhelming the image, no visible hairs (single block), skin uses limited colour palate & limited variance of shade giving a feeling of flatness. I am disconnected with Jadzia/Teri.
Likewise: + all the same comparisons apply as with the Jadzias ^
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Does the image bear a strong resemblance to the character/actor?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Is the image clear?
These are also good examples of:
- Captain Janeway: life-like hues, soft (blended!) skin highlights add to depth, & subtle/suitable neon glow which adds to the image.
- Kathryn Janeway: greyer/washed out (though nicely blended) skin & uniform colours, + chunky neon glow is overwhelming & takes away from the image.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Hair: Is there depth, contrast and detail; can I see hairs?
- Chapel's hair is blocky. These images are also good examples of perfect thickness, subtle blended neon lighting (on Seven) vs hard blocky overwhelming neon lighting (on Chapel).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Attire: Is there significant texture & gradient shading?
- In Chapel's uniform (right) my brain is left to fill in the gaps. That's good for abstract and impressionist art forms, but I don't think that's what we're going for in a Trek card game.
(I've used Commander Chapel's hair and uniform as examples purposefully because the lack of finer detail in the hair and absence of shading on her uniform are a jarring clash with her face. The face was enjoyed by players more than most recent art, as it has depth and accurately resembles Majel Barrett -
although it could also use more gradient blending, especially depending the platform we're playing on.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Is the neon glow add epicness?
- Subtle blended glow on Commander Spock allows his face to take prominence. Also we can see his hairs, and his face is fresh in colour and full of depth and life-like skin detail.
- Unblended chunky glow on Laborer Spock overwhelms his face. Also his hair is more of a uniform block, and his skin like Kathryn Janeway is less lifelike; less fresh and nuanced.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Composition/balance:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Klingon Ridges:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Please use gradients for shading instead of these block colours:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Other requests:
- Scale: Please scale the full cards evenly so that for example, President of Earth is easier to see on our devices & to scale with other crew in gauntlet and on the bridge.
- Cropping: Please crop headshots evenly. Not too big, not too small. I actually like bigger headshots so more visible, but within reason.
Too small: Ilia Probe, President of Earth, Sheriff of Nottingham Q, Lal
Too big: Buster Kincaid Kim, Commander Chapel (not sure if these have been fixed?)
Just right: Command Hologram, Mobile Doctor, Mirror Phlox, Seven of Nine
- In crew quarters, please do not grey out crew who are on voyages/shuttles/battle stations or have that written across their faces. Small icons of ship/shuttle/etc or letters V/S/B in the corner would suffice. Currently, most favourite and primary crew are greyed out, and the text makes it busier than I think is necessary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In summary, the newer art typically uses broad blocky strokes, sacrificing detail, contrast and depth, making the product far less life-like.
Using smooth gradient shading for all aspects of the card, a more full and contrasting colour palate, and toning back down and softening the neon glow as in the examples above - would help the art and game to shine.
Artistic talent is not scarce: There are many great artists who would love to do pieces for DB. Mike Gardner is still a fan favourite, and if he's not available, there are others out there too who would do justice to the characters we love.
Thanks!
I could have muted facial tones, removed gradients and dulled the contrast on my Uhura even more for the point. Even to the level of T'Mir or Labourer Spock. Though what I did with her was mostly to express how the unblended neon outlines of the newer artwork are distracting to me.
+ that it was fun to try it on an existing one, to get an idea what that same card would look like if they'd been done in aggressively-outlined-face-and-blocky-hair style. ^.^
You guys wanted Surak and you got Surak. People complain too much.
And, isn’t that part of the reason for the existence of the Forums? To get feedback from players on the game? One person complaining is an inconsistent data point, multiple complaints would add to validity and reliability of said data. And, as I am sure we all can recognize, there are hollow complaints, constructive criticisms, and general jokes...they aren’t all the same, nor should they all be lumped together under the general heading “complaint.” Having said that, I can see where you are coming from. At times there are a lot of hollow complaints out there.
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Thought on artwork... Surak popped up in the vault quite a while ago, implying he was ready for release, then pulled perhaps for this Mega-Event scheduling. At the same time, people have been complimenting the art for the last few weeks of new cards. Is it possible to assume that this artwork was done before the revision to the art process went into place - so rather than seeing the latest generation of card art, we're seeing something that was completed months ago even though it's just now being released?
Thought on artwork... Surak popped up in the vault quite a while ago, implying he was ready for release, then pulled perhaps for this Mega-Event scheduling. At the same time, people have been complimenting the art for the last few weeks of new cards. Is it possible to assume that this artwork was done before the revision to the art process went into place - so rather than seeing the latest generation of card art, we're seeing something that was completed months ago even though it's just now being released?
Yup. That’s what we think the deal is. It’s also worrying to some who were looking forward to the other crew who popped up at the same time- a new Spock variant, and Amanda Grayson.
You guys wanted Surak and you got Surak. People complain too much.
Some folks complain too much about others complaining too much
Haha, fair enough. You have to admit though that his robe looks really good.
Good enough to cover that face.
Maybe all they actually did was take Ambassador Soval’s robes/body, change it up a bit, and stick a Surak head on, lol. Mind you, I’m not actually saying they did this, just that they could have, lol.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
You guys wanted Surak and you got Surak. People complain too much.
I wanted TOS Surak a lot, not the smiling Enterprise Surak.
At least we aren't getting some 5* we don't want, like last event with the STD reoccurring 5*. I would rather Enterprise Surak than "Michael" Burnham the "Vulcan" (Remember she identifies with being a Vulcan so we have to respect that).
Fingers crossed for an Archer, and Amanda Grayson among the crew as well as expanding the presently limited array of Romulans.
McCoy bless him carried Spock's katra, but Archer carried briefly no less than Surak, the father of Vulcan logic and teachings, with Surak finally arriving, please lets have the appropriate Archer too, thanks.
You guys wanted Surak and you got Surak. People complain too much.
And, isn’t that part of the reason for the existence of the Forums? To get feedback from players on the game? One person complaining is an inconsistent data point, multiple complaints would add to validity and reliability of said data. And, as I am sure we all can recognize, there are hollow complaints, constructive criticisms, and general jokes...they aren’t all the same, nor should they all be lumped together under the general heading “complaint.” Having said that, I can see where you are coming from. At times there are a lot of hollow complaints out there.
Yep exactly. I just hope people use constructive criticism to help improve the game. Tell DB what specifically you like and what you dont like. Thats how we get DB to keep improving the game. I agree that not all artwork is good but I think DB has made a concerted effort in the last month or two to improve the artwork. If people just say the artwork is bad even when DB works to make it better than DB might just dismiss complaints and say why bother people dont like the artwork no matter what we do.
I’m excited for this mega event. Two alien species from Star Trek that I’ve always enjoyed that have an interestingly intertwined history. One the ultra logical, scientific, etc. The other the cunning plotters who are given to subterfuge. Unquestionably the right legendary character. And apologies to the fans of TOS, but I’m glad they chose the version from Enterprise. The one from TOS was so one-dimensional.
Like others, I’m also hoping for Archer, T’Pau (maybe both the version from ENT and the version from TOS), Romulan Picard, maybe Kohlinar Spock from TMP or Captain Spock from TWOK, maybe Ambassador T’Pel (the Romulan spy from TNG), and either Vreenak or Koval of the Tal Shiar (from DS9).
You guys wanted Surak and you got Surak. People complain too much.
I wanted TOS Surak a lot, not the smiling Enterprise Surak.
At least we aren't getting some 5* we don't want, like last event with the STD reoccurring 5*. I would rather Enterprise Surak than "Michael" Burnham the "Vulcan" (Remember she identifies with being a Vulcan so we have to respect that).
I personally like having Cornwell, she's damn useful. And while I haven't finished watching season 1 of DIS, her character was one of the better ones despite having so few scenes.
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Comments
I just really don't think it was better before as compared to now and I really feel that the quality varies greatly across all crew ... if you take Paris (current event crew)
2* - a perfectly boring rendition of who the character probably is on the show.
3* - the face and the rest just don't match well ... the highlights on the shirt are blue, whereas on the face white. The face is detailed, whereas the rest isn't
4* Proton - kinda neat, I like the b&w styling.
4* Medic - again, really good, not detailed at all, more in a "comics" style, good shading etc.
4* Mutated - I just really don't like the gown, it doesn't look right and does not fit with the face.
5* boring, fine I guess.
I don't think art needs to be realistic, I'm perfectly okay with an interpretation of the subject ... I'm personally a fan of low-brow/illustration art (Glenn Barr, Clayton Brothers, Travis Louie, Virgil Partch, Jim Flora to the likes of Chris Ware and Seth) ... but that interpretation needs to have continuity (see Combat Medic Paris) ... I also feel that good craftsmanship does not make great art (see for example the discussion around the 1900s between the Royal College of Art and Slades).
On top of this ... I've never watched Star Trek until Disco so have no connection with any of the historical stuff and so maybe don't feel disappointed in renditions because off it ... I just take them as they are without knowing any of the history.
EDIT: read the post below this one ... I do not agree with it on so many levels ... that person basically wants to see craftsmanship/draftsmanship and not art or an artistic interpretation of characters.
e.g. T'Mir's card art is awesome (one for the best in the game in my humble opinion - I really get a sense of muted 1950/60s faded Tim Burtonesque suburbia, fits wonderfully with the advertisements of the age - it makes me want to see the episode on which that card is based just to get an understanding of the story behind the character) ... Commander T'Pol's is average at best (so cookie-cutter standard in subject matter, I couldn't care less about the episode she's from, her face has zero expression etc.).
Agreed 100%!
I could have muted facial tones, removed gradients and dulled the contrast on my Uhura even more for the point. Even to the level of T'Mir or Labourer Spock. Though what I did with her was mostly to express how the unblended neon outlines of the newer artwork are distracting to me.
+ that it was fun to try it on an existing one, to get an idea what that same card would look like if they'd been done in aggressively-outlined-face-and-blocky-hair style. ^.^
~· Fly with the Subspace Eddies! ·~
this reminds me - could this event finally give us some of these guys??
both?
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids....and that dog!
Some folks complain too much about others complaining too much
And, isn’t that part of the reason for the existence of the Forums? To get feedback from players on the game? One person complaining is an inconsistent data point, multiple complaints would add to validity and reliability of said data. And, as I am sure we all can recognize, there are hollow complaints, constructive criticisms, and general jokes...they aren’t all the same, nor should they all be lumped together under the general heading “complaint.” Having said that, I can see where you are coming from. At times there are a lot of hollow complaints out there.
Good enough to cover that face.
Yup. That’s what we think the deal is. It’s also worrying to some who were looking forward to the other crew who popped up at the same time- a new Spock variant, and Amanda Grayson.
Please fix!!
Maybe all they actually did was take Ambassador Soval’s robes/body, change it up a bit, and stick a Surak head on, lol. Mind you, I’m not actually saying they did this, just that they could have, lol.
Wow, that's bad
DB scores well imo for this
I'm not complaining, either. Bring on the galaxy events, too...love them!
It's worse than bad.
I wanted TOS Surak a lot, not the smiling Enterprise Surak.
― Musashi, Japan's Greatest Swordsman and Samurai
At least we aren't getting some 5* we don't want, like last event with the STD reoccurring 5*. I would rather Enterprise Surak than "Michael" Burnham the "Vulcan" (Remember she identifies with being a Vulcan so we have to respect that).
V'Las
Valdore
Vreenak
You're right, I forgot to fully helmetize the hair and reduce the lips/nose highlights and stuff.
~· Fly with the Subspace Eddies! ·~
McCoy bless him carried Spock's katra, but Archer carried briefly no less than Surak, the father of Vulcan logic and teachings, with Surak finally arriving, please lets have the appropriate Archer too, thanks.
Yep exactly. I just hope people use constructive criticism to help improve the game. Tell DB what specifically you like and what you dont like. Thats how we get DB to keep improving the game. I agree that not all artwork is good but I think DB has made a concerted effort in the last month or two to improve the artwork. If people just say the artwork is bad even when DB works to make it better than DB might just dismiss complaints and say why bother people dont like the artwork no matter what we do.
Like others, I’m also hoping for Archer, T’Pau (maybe both the version from ENT and the version from TOS), Romulan Picard, maybe Kohlinar Spock from TMP or Captain Spock from TWOK, maybe Ambassador T’Pel (the Romulan spy from TNG), and either Vreenak or Koval of the Tal Shiar (from DS9).
Captain Level: 95
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I personally like having Cornwell, she's damn useful. And while I haven't finished watching season 1 of DIS, her character was one of the better ones despite having so few scenes.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
If that's the case good luck getting any new TOS crew.
― Musashi, Japan's Greatest Swordsman and Samurai