Getting very disturbed by this. Usually don't comment on the forum, but felt compelled to do so now.
I was just going to ignore the datawall. But this possible data mining from the app itself, and TP not seeming to know if that is the case, puts the whole thing in a different light.
In checking this a little on my own, I went to Ironsource's website to see if perhaps they don't have a BBB accreditation because they aren't centered in the US. But they do seem to be based "worldwide", including in New York and San Francisco. So I would think they could have some BBB status.
Also, from their own site, "Data shows that 15% of the top 100 grossing apps monetize with the offerwall, and 25% of the top 100 grossing games do." So that means that 85% of the top grossing apps DON'T use offerwalls. Not needed to succeed.
I'm a level 11 player. So not a whale, but yet not FTP. But I will add my (meager) voice to others who say that TP will be getting nothing more from me until this is cleared up. And depending on how quickly and well they do so will be a factor in my decisions in the future.
It's really disappointing that the system remains in game while no one has any answers regarding player safety, not to mention the host of other system-related bugs.
WRG and TP knew who they were getting into bed with and now all the players do too.
In the Apple Store. The game links to a license agreement with Disruptor Beam. It does the same for the privacy policy. The in game privacy policy (iOS) links to Disruptor Beam.
Aside from anything else, these terms state there is 30 day notification period before any changes can be made to them.
So at least on iOS, those are the agreements that us players and the game owner are required to follow. If they have not been updated following commercial changes to the game status, that's a problem for TP and something they should be looking to resolve ASAP (and again, let me stress there is a mandatory notification period before these changes can be made.)
Um ... I know Shan and the team won’t read this for a few hours, but ... damn, y’all need to shut that thing down immediately. Roll the app back to 7.5.2 for everyone, similar to the last time you had to roll one back on short notice, just a few weeks ago.
You’re not looking at just losing a substantial portion of your LTV player-base, at this point. You are facing legal repercussions and a drain on revenue, which will impact your company’s attractiveness in the marketplace and its future viability.
I trusted DB, even though they made mistakes. Humans do that. I want to trust WRG, since it’s a lot of the same humans.
At this point, I have no basis for trusting TP. Zero. I will not give you any more money. I see no reason to stay here, if that thing continues, period. So fix it.🖖
"In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
I won't post the response as I think it might be against the rules but support have informed me that they still follow GDPR.
However the understanding of GDPR that is then laid out in the email is totally incorrect (it claims not to hold some data... while displaying that same data within the ticket) and they did not actually complete my request.
Can you personally vouch for these “offers” being safe and secure?
Almost all the “surveys” are misleading and end up asking for way to much personal information.
This!
I was curious and started a survey. I closed the tab in the very moment the survey told me that it might be necessary to do parts of the survey on other websites.
Can you personally vouch for these “offers” being safe and secure?
Almost all the “surveys” are misleading and end up asking for way to much personal information.
This!
I was curious and started a survey. I closed the tab in the very moment the survey told me that it might be necessary to do parts of the survey on other websites.
The part that I find most surprising, is that from the moment this thread was first started, most people were against the idea of an offer wall, though many were willing to give it a chance.
Since the offer wall went live, the overwhelming feedback from players on this forum has been that the offer wall needs to be disabled and removed until privacy concerns and legitimacy of offers can be vetted out.
As a reminder to TP, there may not be thousands of players in this forum, but we are all part of well established and full fleets. The voices of our fleets may not be individually represented here, but we certainly do communicate issues such as these to all players that we are connected to in game.
Each one of us represents more than 50 current game players. We are leaders in our fleets and we care about our people, I wish that you would give some indication that you care too. I would encourage you to take these concerns very seriously and fix this RIGHT NOW.
This is akin to a bear and a beehive. A colony of bees flies into a new area of the woods where a bear lives and decides to build a hive. The bear knows if it sticks its hand into a beehive, the chance of getting stung is nearly 100% but there is a small, potential reward of getting some honey while having to deal with painful, multiple bee stings for a while. The bear doesn't have to do it, but was curious to see what it could get if it took a chance to get some of that honey.
People commenting here about the wall here presumably read the the thread about the wall before it went online. Some chose to ignore it while others decided to take the risk. I assume most people who have used the internet in the last 25 years have gone to a website and have seen the same surveys and similar things on the wall in pop-up ads for the chance to enter get something free or get a gift card to be used at ____.
I think the user base of the game or at least the ones who post here tend to be people with some intelligence. They know about pop up ads, phishing, malware, etc. If you click on a link to take you to a third party website, you're probably asking for trouble especially since what this wall is should be pretty obvious. Anyone with a modicum of commonsense and internet awareness knows not to give out real personal information on online sites like these for the hope of getting "something for nothing".
Was this a bad idea on TP's part? Yes. Do they need the additional revenue at the expense of potential PR cost? Maybe. Complaining about something that you know is wrong and you made the personal choice to do engage in its use, the onus is on you. Nobody had to click the free dilitihium button to see those offers to continue to playing the game.
If that button was pressed and brought you to that page to see what the offers were, but you didn't click on the any of the offers and tracking info and other things were installed on your mobile device, I would have a problem with that. If you willingly decide to click on one of those offers for the chance of some free dilithium, you probably had a good idea that you were getting yourself into something. Self-responsibility is something that seems to be lacking these days. You're responsible for your own actions.
So now there are a bunch of upset and angry people threatening to leave the game after investing a lot of time and possibly money into something for a few years. If it starts the downfall and the shutting down the game because of some people's poor personal decision, that is sadder than TP adding the wall to the game in the first place.
Perhaps I was being naive or eternally optimistic, but I was thinking this would be more along the lines of the google reward structure which shall we say seems to be more above board than this.
I.E. a survey available complete survey get 25 cents/pence, if there isn't a survey match there isn't a survey to complete. Rather than complete a survey, and another, and another, and another, go to this website, and this website, and this one. Sign up to this premium subs etc.
But more to the point it's whether this software is actively obtaining data while the game is running regardless of whether you clicked the button or not, or running in the background on your phone whilst the game is active.
I've not left the game but I have uninstalled the app and am running on desktop instead, I am also not purchasing anything further until this matter is resolved.
Needless to say it got WRG/TP seal of approval to come try it out. The issue is trust has been well and truly been shattered.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
This is akin to a bear and a beehive. A colony of bees flies into a new area of the woods where a bear lives and decides to build a hive. The bear knows if it sticks its hand into a beehive, the chance of getting stung is nearly 100% but there is a small, potential reward of getting some honey while having to deal with painful, multiple bee stings for a while. The bear doesn't have to do it, but was curious to see what it could get if it took a chance to get some of that honey.
People commenting here about the wall here presumably read the the thread about the wall before it went online. Some chose to ignore it while others decided to take the risk. I assume most people who have used the internet in the last 25 years have gone to a website and have seen the same surveys and similar things on the wall in pop-up ads for the chance to enter get something free or get a gift card to be used at ____.
I think the user base of the game or at least the ones who post here tend to be people with some intelligence. They know about pop up ads, phishing, malware, etc. If you click on a link to take you to a third party website, you're probably asking for trouble especially since what this wall is should be pretty obvious. Anyone with a modicum of commonsense and internet awareness knows not to give out real personal information on online sites like these for the hope of getting "something for nothing".
Was this a bad idea on TP's part? Yes. Do they need the additional revenue at the expense of potential PR cost? Maybe. Complaining about something that you know is wrong and you made the personal choice to do engage in its use, the onus is on you. Nobody had to click the free dilitihium button to see those offers to continue to playing the game.
If that button was pressed and brought you to that page to see what the offers were, but you didn't click on the any of the offers and tracking info and other things were installed on your mobile device, I would have a problem with that. If you willingly decide to click on one of those offers for the chance of some free dilithium, you probably had a good idea that you were getting yourself into something. Self-responsibility is something that seems to be lacking these days. You're responsible for your own actions.
So now there are a bunch of upset and angry people threatening to leave the game after investing a lot of time and possibly money into something for a few years. If it starts the downfall and the shutting down the game because of some people's poor personal decision, that is sadder than TP adding the wall to the game in the first place.
Interesting points, I agree that there is certainly some individual responsibility here, if people are trying offers, sure, they probably have some level of “maybe this is a bad idea” going through their head.
However, TP can’t even respond here and say that the tracking mechanisms are only activated when those offers are clicked on. We are two days in. It is a huge problem when we can’t get a response to indicate that our data is still safe, provided that we don’t tap/click on “free dilithium”
More than that, you seem to be taking a stance that everyone playing this game is a responsible adult. Which is shaky ground to be standing on, as I can promise you that there are many, MANY players that are children.
The offer wall is predatory at best. It has no business being in this game.
This is akin to a bear and a beehive. A colony of bees flies into a new area of the woods where a bear lives and decides to build a hive. The bear knows if it sticks its hand into a beehive, the chance of getting stung is nearly 100% but there is a small, potential reward of getting some honey while having to deal with painful, multiple bee stings for a while. The bear doesn't have to do it, but was curious to see what it could get if it took a chance to get some of that honey.
People commenting here about the wall here presumably read the the thread about the wall before it went online. Some chose to ignore it while others decided to take the risk. I assume most people who have used the internet in the last 25 years have gone to a website and have seen the same surveys and similar things on the wall in pop-up ads for the chance to enter get something free or get a gift card to be used at ____.
I think the user base of the game or at least the ones who post here tend to be people with some intelligence. They know about pop up ads, phishing, malware, etc. If you click on a link to take you to a third party website, you're probably asking for trouble especially since what this wall is should be pretty obvious. Anyone with a modicum of commonsense and internet awareness knows not to give out real personal information on online sites like these for the hope of getting "something for nothing".
Was this a bad idea on TP's part? Yes. Do they need the additional revenue at the expense of potential PR cost? Maybe. Complaining about something that you know is wrong and you made the personal choice to do engage in its use, the onus is on you. Nobody had to click the free dilitihium button to see those offers to continue to playing the game.
If that button was pressed and brought you to that page to see what the offers were, but you didn't click on the any of the offers and tracking info and other things were installed on your mobile device, I would have a problem with that. If you willingly decide to click on one of those offers for the chance of some free dilithium, you probably had a good idea that you were getting yourself into something. Self-responsibility is something that seems to be lacking these days. You're responsible for your own actions.
So now there are a bunch of upset and angry people threatening to leave the game after investing a lot of time and possibly money into something for a few years. If it starts the downfall and the shutting down the game because of some people's poor personal decision, that is sadder than TP adding the wall to the game in the first place.
Interesting points, I agree that there is certainly some individual responsibility here, if people are trying offers, sure, they probably have some level of “maybe this is a bad idea” going through their head.
However, TP can’t even respond here and say that the tracking mechanisms are only activated when those offers are clicked on. We are two days in. It is a huge problem when we can’t get a response to indicate that our data is still safe, provided that we don’t tap/click on “free dilithium”
More than that, you seem to be taking a stance that everyone playing this game is a responsible adult. Which is shaky ground to be standing on, as I can promise you that there are many, MANY players that are children.
The offer wall is predatory at best. It has no business being in this game.
As I mentioned, I agree it was poor decision by TP to add the wall. I agree with you on the children using the game aspect and a "warning must be 18 or over to enter" button must be clicked to engage in these offers could have been put in, but those are essentially for liability purposes only. Go to any website of a beer or a liquor company and it requires you to enter your date of birth. That is something a person of any age could enter truthful or false info to get in. A parent should be monitoring a child's online activity and teaching him/her what not to do online like giving out personal info, immediately closing pop ups, not clicking on banner ads, going to porn sites, engaging with strangers online in a game like Fortnite, etc. A child can easily find these things on the internet as well.
This is akin to a bear and a beehive. A colony of bees flies into a new area of the woods where a bear lives and decides to build a hive. The bear knows if it sticks its hand into a beehive, the chance of getting stung is nearly 100% but there is a small, potential reward of getting some honey while having to deal with painful, multiple bee stings for a while. The bear doesn't have to do it, but was curious to see what it could get if it took a chance to get some of that honey.
People commenting here about the wall here presumably read the the thread about the wall before it went online. Some chose to ignore it while others decided to take the risk. I assume most people who have used the internet in the last 25 years have gone to a website and have seen the same surveys and similar things on the wall in pop-up ads for the chance to enter get something free or get a gift card to be used at ____.
I think the user base of the game or at least the ones who post here tend to be people with some intelligence. They know about pop up ads, phishing, malware, etc. If you click on a link to take you to a third party website, you're probably asking for trouble especially since what this wall is should be pretty obvious. Anyone with a modicum of commonsense and internet awareness knows not to give out real personal information on online sites like these for the hope of getting "something for nothing".
Was this a bad idea on TP's part? Yes. Do they need the additional revenue at the expense of potential PR cost? Maybe. Complaining about something that you know is wrong and you made the personal choice to do engage in its use, the onus is on you. Nobody had to click the free dilitihium button to see those offers to continue to playing the game.
If that button was pressed and brought you to that page to see what the offers were, but you didn't click on the any of the offers and tracking info and other things were installed on your mobile device, I would have a problem with that. If you willingly decide to click on one of those offers for the chance of some free dilithium, you probably had a good idea that you were getting yourself into something. Self-responsibility is something that seems to be lacking these days. You're responsible for your own actions.
So now there are a bunch of upset and angry people threatening to leave the game after investing a lot of time and possibly money into something for a few years. If it starts the downfall and the shutting down the game because of some people's poor personal decision, that is sadder than TP adding the wall to the game in the first place.
Many, I am sure, have dealt with similar features in other games, never mind Internet advertising in general through search engines and social media. The hope was that the system employed would not be sinister, predatory, and potentially illegal in some jurisdictions as has been the case in other games with similar features. Testing confirms that those hopes did not pan out, and that there is more data being shared now regardless of offer wall usage - something that was not included in any announcements prior to the service going live.
You seem to be of the opinion that TP can do whatever they please. And, honestly, you are right about that. Consequentially, the player base has the right to cease all association with TP if they do something that we believe is harmful. We would overwhelmingly prefer the offer wall is removed so we can go back to complaining about stats, traits, RNG, and curious pack designs, and a forward-thinking person at TP would not want to gain a little bit of offer wall revenue at the cost of losing a ton of traditional ad/purchase revenue.
It’s also not just about losing traditional revenue sources - even during some of the worst miscues over the last four and half years, only a few fringe voices threatened to delete the game and never come back. What TP faces now is a massive loss of engagement - you can’t tempt people to open their wallets again if they can’t see your bait in the first place. The people saying they are considering leaving entirely or severely scaling back are highly influential in their fleets, off-site forums, this forum, Discord servers, Reddit, and the popular Timelines Talks. Distrust in TP’s intentions is going to spread well beyond this forum the longer this issue festers, and it’s not just going to be a few dozen or hundred people here that 1) won’t spend, 2) won’t ever consider spending again, and 3) will be left with such a bitter taste in their mouths that a mailbox full of freebies isn’t going to get them to come back someday in the future.
As I mentioned, I agree it was poor decision by TP to add the wall. I agree with you on the children using the game aspect and a "warning must be 18 or over to enter" button must be clicked to engage in these offers could have been put in, but those are essentially for liability purposes only. Go to any website of a beer or a liquor company and it requires you to enter your date of birth. That is something a person of any age could enter truthful or false info to get in. A parent should be monitoring a child's online activity and teaching him/her what not to do online like giving out personal info, immediately closing pop ups, not clicking on banner ads, going to porn sites, engaging with strangers online in a game like Fortnite, etc. A child can easily find these things on the internet as well.
Just as an aside, i'm not dreading the "talk" i'm going to have with my kids, but I am dreading trying to explain what is good and what is bad on the internet, and how I had to work it out through a combination of internet hive-mind and dumb luck.
If that button was pressed and brought you to that page to see what the offers were, but you didn't click on the any of the offers and tracking info and other things were installed on your mobile device, I would have a problem with that. If you willingly decide to click on one of those offers for the chance of some free dilithium, you probably had a good idea that you were getting yourself into something. Self-responsibility is something that seems to be lacking these days. You're responsible for your own actions.
You've hit on the key issue right here. If you go to the offer wall and choose to engage with any of the offers, especially the surveys, then that's on you. Any data that you willingly hand over is your responsibility. I don't think anyone would dispute that, although many would question the ethics of Ironsource's business model and TP's engagement with them. But we all definitely have a responsibility to take care of our own personal information.
However, Ironsource's own website makes it clear that this is not all they do. They can take information from your device via any app that uses their SDK, regardless of whether you interact with the offer wall in any way. You don't have to engage with an offer, or even open the wall, just starting up STT is enough.
This is, admittedly, a "worst case scenario" interpretation of the current situation. But it is based entirely on information made available by Ironsource and TP. Indeed Ironsource are proud of the efficiency of their data gathering and why wouldn't they be, it's how they attract business partners and make money after all. But if everything they claim is actually true (and it may not be, it wouldn't be the first time a company has exaggerated in their marketing materials) then we should all be very worried, whether we use the wall or not.
Thanks, @Yamian . That list seems pretty much in-line with what I'm seeing; a few slight differences, possibly due to Android vs. iOS SDK versions.
It'll also be nice if someone can downgrade their apk version on Android to see if some of these were added with the new version, or if these servers were always pinged but we just didn't notice until now.
It looks like I cannot downgrade, I suppose I could delete the app and download the older version from a more-or-less suspicious source...
I went through the log and checked June 1st 2020, which should be queries done by the old version of the game. I have a time in the morning around which I usually check the game so I used that as a reference. During about 5 minutes of playing the game, I could find only adcolony.com (which you already mentioned in your findings) as a difference from current state.
I did another test - started the game, waited for a time reference and clicked the "Free Dilithium" button and scrolled through the offers (didn't click any of them). Again, I spent 1 minute browsing the offers and then closing the game.
It seems that only crashlytics.com (which you mentioned earlier) is the new one on the list for me.
I have not clicked on any of the offers during this test. I expect that doing so would result in the device contacting various other locations.
Conclusion:
There seem to be no change regarding the game queries between the version from June 1st 2020 and yesterday (June 25 2020). Also clicking the "Free Dilithium" button does not seem have an effect on the queries.
That being said, this sample size is very small, less than 10 minutes of the game running.
I also have no idea what data are being exchanged among the game/phone and the other involved parties. It's also possible that the data is stored on the phone and then shared in bulk later. It could also be possible that any of the parties mentioned above shares the data with the new party(ies) that provide the offers.
Thanks, @Yamian . That list seems pretty much in-line with what I'm seeing; a few slight differences, possibly due to Android vs. iOS SDK versions.
It'll also be nice if someone can downgrade their apk version on Android to see if some of these were added with the new version, or if these servers were always pinged but we just didn't notice until now.
Conclusion:
There seem to be no change regarding the game queries between the version from June 1st 2020 and yesterday (June 25 2020). Also clicking the "Free Dilithium" button does not seem have an effect on the queries.
That being said, this sample size is very small, less than 10 minutes of the game running.
I also have no idea what data are being exchanged among the game/phone and the other involved parties. It's also possible that the data is stored on the phone and then shared in bulk later. It could also be possible that any of the parties mentioned above shares the data with the new party(ies) that provide the offers.
I'm a forum lurker and don't usually post but thought I should weigh in on this one.
Reading through this thread, I find some things very concerning and am interested in hearing some answers from TP. The Offerwall is one thing - if someone willingly chooses to fill out a survey or install an app, that's one thing. However, if this new partnership with Ironsource is collecting data without my knowledge or consent (information on my mobile device outside of the Timelines app), I'm going to have a very big problem with that. I have until now trusted the development team behind Timelines but this trust will be severely eroded if I find out that my personal data is being monetized without my knowledge or consent.
Furthermore, I don't really understand the logic behind the offerwall. It seems to be largely about installing and playing other games to get dilithium rewards. Why would TP want to promote other games within their own app? Doesn't this risk eroding the existing user base as people might be exposed to other games that they would rather play or migrate to instead of Timelines? It seems like maybe there's some short term gain but this could result in long term pain.
I hope this isn't as bad as it seems like it might be. I've played this game since Day 1 and have put lots of time, money and effort into it. I still enjoy it. But I will not use an app that I do not trust and will have to make some tough choices about whether I continue to play Timelines if I find that the developer has been engaging in unsavory behaviour.
It's one thing to do something that makes players withhold real money. It's something else to make uninstalling the game altogether a reasonable recourse, which I've now done. I'll continue playing on the laptop--for now--but I can uninstall that just as easily.
Furthermore, I don't really understand the logic behind the offerwall. It seems to be largely about installing and playing other games to get dilithium rewards. Why would TP want to promote other games within their own app? Doesn't this risk eroding the existing user base as people might be exposed to other games that they would rather play or migrate to instead of Timelines? It seems like maybe there's some short term gain but this could result in long term pain.
I would imagine that it isn’t a one-way street - other games with similar offer walls will grant premium in-game currency if their users try out Timelines and reach level 5 or 10 or something. Is there the chance that people will ditch the old game for the new? I suppose, for a number of reasons, but the theory is that the number of people leaving for good would be less than the number of people sticking around for good once the minimum participation requirement is cleared.
Furthermore, I don't really understand the logic behind the offerwall. It seems to be largely about installing and playing other games to get dilithium rewards. Why would TP want to promote other games within their own app? Doesn't this risk eroding the existing user base as people might be exposed to other games that they would rather play or migrate to instead of Timelines? It seems like maybe there's some short term gain but this could result in long term pain.
I would imagine that it isn’t a one-way street - other games with similar offer walls will grant premium in-game currency if their users try out Timelines and reach level 5 or 10 or something. Is there the chance that people will ditch the old game for the new? I suppose, for a number of reasons, but the theory is that the number of people leaving for good would be less than the number of people sticking around for good once the minimum participation requirement is cleared.
I'd be interested to know which other companies are participating in this, so I'll know who else not to trust. Probably not something that would be permitted on the forum, but could easily be maintained elsewhere.
Furthermore, I don't really understand the logic behind the offerwall. It seems to be largely about installing and playing other games to get dilithium rewards. Why would TP want to promote other games within their own app? Doesn't this risk eroding the existing user base as people might be exposed to other games that they would rather play or migrate to instead of Timelines? It seems like maybe there's some short term gain but this could result in long term pain.
I would imagine that it isn’t a one-way street - other games with similar offer walls will grant premium in-game currency if their users try out Timelines and reach level 5 or 10 or something. Is there the chance that people will ditch the old game for the new? I suppose, for a number of reasons, but the theory is that the number of people leaving for good would be less than the number of people sticking around for good once the minimum participation requirement is cleared.
I'd be interested to know which other companies are participating in this, so I'll know who else not to trust. Probably not something that would be permitted on the forum, but could easily be maintained elsewhere.
That would be a fantastic list to assemble. I, for one, really only play this game regularly on my phone (Word Cookies is a nice brain teaser I whip out on occasion) but anyone who plays lots of mobile games is likely to benefit from knowing what developers can be trusted and those that should be avoided.
Furthermore, I don't really understand the logic behind the offerwall. It seems to be largely about installing and playing other games to get dilithium rewards. Why would TP want to promote other games within their own app? Doesn't this risk eroding the existing user base as people might be exposed to other games that they would rather play or migrate to instead of Timelines? It seems like maybe there's some short term gain but this could result in long term pain.
I would imagine that it isn’t a one-way street - other games with similar offer walls will grant premium in-game currency if their users try out Timelines and reach level 5 or 10 or something. Is there the chance that people will ditch the old game for the new? I suppose, for a number of reasons, but the theory is that the number of people leaving for good would be less than the number of people sticking around for good once the minimum participation requirement is cleared.
Yes - possibly it is a two way street. But Star Trek is definitely more niche - you're probably not going to play Timelines unless you're already interested in the Star Trek universe. I'm not sure a person really requires any niche interest to play slot machines, Shadow Legends, Lords Mobile, Guns of Glory or some of the other games listed on my Offer wall (which I assume are targeted to me, based on my interests, etc). But I'll admit people smarter than me have probably done the business case for adding the offer wall and have concluded that it's a good way to generate revenue. At least I hope that's the case and it just wasn't Ironsource making a pitch to TP by saying "Add offer wall, hook players on it, profit!!!"
Considering the overwhelming response from players on this forum about what exactly the “offer wall” means for data privacy concerns, with the apparent lack of an official response from TP/WR after two days of heated discussion, I am growing closer to concluding that our questions and concerns are not going to be answered anytime soon.
To me, at least so far, it looks like the approach from WR/TP is to simply ignore the problem and hope it just goes away.
If there is no official response before COB today, I will feel more confident in my assumption that the devs are not paying attention to the things that matter to the players.
Comments
Complaints
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/ironsrc.com
And:
I was just going to ignore the datawall. But this possible data mining from the app itself, and TP not seeming to know if that is the case, puts the whole thing in a different light.
In checking this a little on my own, I went to Ironsource's website to see if perhaps they don't have a BBB accreditation because they aren't centered in the US. But they do seem to be based "worldwide", including in New York and San Francisco. So I would think they could have some BBB status.
Also, from their own site, "Data shows that 15% of the top 100 grossing apps monetize with the offerwall, and 25% of the top 100 grossing games do." So that means that 85% of the top grossing apps DON'T use offerwalls. Not needed to succeed.
I'm a level 11 player. So not a whale, but yet not FTP. But I will add my (meager) voice to others who say that TP will be getting nothing more from me until this is cleared up. And depending on how quickly and well they do so will be a factor in my decisions in the future.
WRG and TP knew who they were getting into bed with and now all the players do too.
In the Apple Store. The game links to a license agreement with Disruptor Beam. It does the same for the privacy policy. The in game privacy policy (iOS) links to Disruptor Beam.
Aside from anything else, these terms state there is 30 day notification period before any changes can be made to them.
So at least on iOS, those are the agreements that us players and the game owner are required to follow. If they have not been updated following commercial changes to the game status, that's a problem for TP and something they should be looking to resolve ASAP (and again, let me stress there is a mandatory notification period before these changes can be made.)
Adding my name to request answers to these questions. Also if #1 is correct, as a Uk resident, will require an OPT OUT setting to meet with GDPR
Um ... I know Shan and the team won’t read this for a few hours, but ... damn, y’all need to shut that thing down immediately. Roll the app back to 7.5.2 for everyone, similar to the last time you had to roll one back on short notice, just a few weeks ago.
You’re not looking at just losing a substantial portion of your LTV player-base, at this point. You are facing legal repercussions and a drain on revenue, which will impact your company’s attractiveness in the marketplace and its future viability.
I trusted DB, even though they made mistakes. Humans do that. I want to trust WRG, since it’s a lot of the same humans.
At this point, I have no basis for trusting TP. Zero. I will not give you any more money. I see no reason to stay here, if that thing continues, period. So fix it.🖖
However the understanding of GDPR that is then laid out in the email is totally incorrect (it claims not to hold some data... while displaying that same data within the ticket) and they did not actually complete my request.
I am following up.
This!
I was curious and started a survey. I closed the tab in the very moment the survey told me that it might be necessary to do parts of the survey on other websites.
Sorry, could not resist this one
Since the offer wall went live, the overwhelming feedback from players on this forum has been that the offer wall needs to be disabled and removed until privacy concerns and legitimacy of offers can be vetted out.
As a reminder to TP, there may not be thousands of players in this forum, but we are all part of well established and full fleets. The voices of our fleets may not be individually represented here, but we certainly do communicate issues such as these to all players that we are connected to in game.
Each one of us represents more than 50 current game players. We are leaders in our fleets and we care about our people, I wish that you would give some indication that you care too. I would encourage you to take these concerns very seriously and fix this RIGHT NOW.
People commenting here about the wall here presumably read the the thread about the wall before it went online. Some chose to ignore it while others decided to take the risk. I assume most people who have used the internet in the last 25 years have gone to a website and have seen the same surveys and similar things on the wall in pop-up ads for the chance to enter get something free or get a gift card to be used at ____.
I think the user base of the game or at least the ones who post here tend to be people with some intelligence. They know about pop up ads, phishing, malware, etc. If you click on a link to take you to a third party website, you're probably asking for trouble especially since what this wall is should be pretty obvious. Anyone with a modicum of commonsense and internet awareness knows not to give out real personal information on online sites like these for the hope of getting "something for nothing".
Was this a bad idea on TP's part? Yes. Do they need the additional revenue at the expense of potential PR cost? Maybe. Complaining about something that you know is wrong and you made the personal choice to do engage in its use, the onus is on you. Nobody had to click the free dilitihium button to see those offers to continue to playing the game.
If that button was pressed and brought you to that page to see what the offers were, but you didn't click on the any of the offers and tracking info and other things were installed on your mobile device, I would have a problem with that. If you willingly decide to click on one of those offers for the chance of some free dilithium, you probably had a good idea that you were getting yourself into something. Self-responsibility is something that seems to be lacking these days. You're responsible for your own actions.
So now there are a bunch of upset and angry people threatening to leave the game after investing a lot of time and possibly money into something for a few years. If it starts the downfall and the shutting down the game because of some people's poor personal decision, that is sadder than TP adding the wall to the game in the first place.
I.E. a survey available complete survey get 25 cents/pence, if there isn't a survey match there isn't a survey to complete. Rather than complete a survey, and another, and another, and another, go to this website, and this website, and this one. Sign up to this premium subs etc.
But more to the point it's whether this software is actively obtaining data while the game is running regardless of whether you clicked the button or not, or running in the background on your phone whilst the game is active.
I've not left the game but I have uninstalled the app and am running on desktop instead, I am also not purchasing anything further until this matter is resolved.
Needless to say it got WRG/TP seal of approval to come try it out. The issue is trust has been well and truly been shattered.
Interesting points, I agree that there is certainly some individual responsibility here, if people are trying offers, sure, they probably have some level of “maybe this is a bad idea” going through their head.
However, TP can’t even respond here and say that the tracking mechanisms are only activated when those offers are clicked on. We are two days in. It is a huge problem when we can’t get a response to indicate that our data is still safe, provided that we don’t tap/click on “free dilithium”
More than that, you seem to be taking a stance that everyone playing this game is a responsible adult. Which is shaky ground to be standing on, as I can promise you that there are many, MANY players that are children.
The offer wall is predatory at best. It has no business being in this game.
In one move TP have ruined a great game. Regret the money I've wasted on this now and actually feel kind of betrayed.
As I mentioned, I agree it was poor decision by TP to add the wall. I agree with you on the children using the game aspect and a "warning must be 18 or over to enter" button must be clicked to engage in these offers could have been put in, but those are essentially for liability purposes only. Go to any website of a beer or a liquor company and it requires you to enter your date of birth. That is something a person of any age could enter truthful or false info to get in. A parent should be monitoring a child's online activity and teaching him/her what not to do online like giving out personal info, immediately closing pop ups, not clicking on banner ads, going to porn sites, engaging with strangers online in a game like Fortnite, etc. A child can easily find these things on the internet as well.
Many, I am sure, have dealt with similar features in other games, never mind Internet advertising in general through search engines and social media. The hope was that the system employed would not be sinister, predatory, and potentially illegal in some jurisdictions as has been the case in other games with similar features. Testing confirms that those hopes did not pan out, and that there is more data being shared now regardless of offer wall usage - something that was not included in any announcements prior to the service going live.
You seem to be of the opinion that TP can do whatever they please. And, honestly, you are right about that. Consequentially, the player base has the right to cease all association with TP if they do something that we believe is harmful. We would overwhelmingly prefer the offer wall is removed so we can go back to complaining about stats, traits, RNG, and curious pack designs, and a forward-thinking person at TP would not want to gain a little bit of offer wall revenue at the cost of losing a ton of traditional ad/purchase revenue.
It’s also not just about losing traditional revenue sources - even during some of the worst miscues over the last four and half years, only a few fringe voices threatened to delete the game and never come back. What TP faces now is a massive loss of engagement - you can’t tempt people to open their wallets again if they can’t see your bait in the first place. The people saying they are considering leaving entirely or severely scaling back are highly influential in their fleets, off-site forums, this forum, Discord servers, Reddit, and the popular Timelines Talks. Distrust in TP’s intentions is going to spread well beyond this forum the longer this issue festers, and it’s not just going to be a few dozen or hundred people here that 1) won’t spend, 2) won’t ever consider spending again, and 3) will be left with such a bitter taste in their mouths that a mailbox full of freebies isn’t going to get them to come back someday in the future.
Just as an aside, i'm not dreading the "talk" i'm going to have with my kids, but I am dreading trying to explain what is good and what is bad on the internet, and how I had to work it out through a combination of internet hive-mind and dumb luck.
There is no option in STT to disable the “offer wall” and all associated tracking/malware.
You've hit on the key issue right here. If you go to the offer wall and choose to engage with any of the offers, especially the surveys, then that's on you. Any data that you willingly hand over is your responsibility. I don't think anyone would dispute that, although many would question the ethics of Ironsource's business model and TP's engagement with them. But we all definitely have a responsibility to take care of our own personal information.
However, Ironsource's own website makes it clear that this is not all they do. They can take information from your device via any app that uses their SDK, regardless of whether you interact with the offer wall in any way. You don't have to engage with an offer, or even open the wall, just starting up STT is enough.
This is, admittedly, a "worst case scenario" interpretation of the current situation. But it is based entirely on information made available by Ironsource and TP. Indeed Ironsource are proud of the efficiency of their data gathering and why wouldn't they be, it's how they attract business partners and make money after all. But if everything they claim is actually true (and it may not be, it wouldn't be the first time a company has exaggerated in their marketing materials) then we should all be very worried, whether we use the wall or not.
I went through the log and checked June 1st 2020, which should be queries done by the old version of the game. I have a time in the morning around which I usually check the game so I used that as a reference. During about 5 minutes of playing the game, I could find only adcolony.com (which you already mentioned in your findings) as a difference from current state.
I did another test - started the game, waited for a time reference and clicked the "Free Dilithium" button and scrolled through the offers (didn't click any of them). Again, I spent 1 minute browsing the offers and then closing the game.
This was the result based on PiHole queries list:
rt.applovin.com
play.googleapis.com
settings.crashlytics.com
facebook.com
google.com
supersonicads.com
cdp.cloud.unity3d.com
It seems that only crashlytics.com (which you mentioned earlier) is the new one on the list for me.
I have not clicked on any of the offers during this test. I expect that doing so would result in the device contacting various other locations.
Conclusion:
There seem to be no change regarding the game queries between the version from June 1st 2020 and yesterday (June 25 2020). Also clicking the "Free Dilithium" button does not seem have an effect on the queries.
That being said, this sample size is very small, less than 10 minutes of the game running.
I also have no idea what data are being exchanged among the game/phone and the other involved parties. It's also possible that the data is stored on the phone and then shared in bulk later. It could also be possible that any of the parties mentioned above shares the data with the new party(ies) that provide the offers.
Trying is the first step towards failure.
Thank you for doing this work.
Reading through this thread, I find some things very concerning and am interested in hearing some answers from TP. The Offerwall is one thing - if someone willingly chooses to fill out a survey or install an app, that's one thing. However, if this new partnership with Ironsource is collecting data without my knowledge or consent (information on my mobile device outside of the Timelines app), I'm going to have a very big problem with that. I have until now trusted the development team behind Timelines but this trust will be severely eroded if I find out that my personal data is being monetized without my knowledge or consent.
Furthermore, I don't really understand the logic behind the offerwall. It seems to be largely about installing and playing other games to get dilithium rewards. Why would TP want to promote other games within their own app? Doesn't this risk eroding the existing user base as people might be exposed to other games that they would rather play or migrate to instead of Timelines? It seems like maybe there's some short term gain but this could result in long term pain.
I hope this isn't as bad as it seems like it might be. I've played this game since Day 1 and have put lots of time, money and effort into it. I still enjoy it. But I will not use an app that I do not trust and will have to make some tough choices about whether I continue to play Timelines if I find that the developer has been engaging in unsavory behaviour.
I would imagine that it isn’t a one-way street - other games with similar offer walls will grant premium in-game currency if their users try out Timelines and reach level 5 or 10 or something. Is there the chance that people will ditch the old game for the new? I suppose, for a number of reasons, but the theory is that the number of people leaving for good would be less than the number of people sticking around for good once the minimum participation requirement is cleared.
I'd be interested to know which other companies are participating in this, so I'll know who else not to trust. Probably not something that would be permitted on the forum, but could easily be maintained elsewhere.
That would be a fantastic list to assemble. I, for one, really only play this game regularly on my phone (Word Cookies is a nice brain teaser I whip out on occasion) but anyone who plays lots of mobile games is likely to benefit from knowing what developers can be trusted and those that should be avoided.
Yes - possibly it is a two way street. But Star Trek is definitely more niche - you're probably not going to play Timelines unless you're already interested in the Star Trek universe. I'm not sure a person really requires any niche interest to play slot machines, Shadow Legends, Lords Mobile, Guns of Glory or some of the other games listed on my Offer wall (which I assume are targeted to me, based on my interests, etc). But I'll admit people smarter than me have probably done the business case for adding the offer wall and have concluded that it's a good way to generate revenue. At least I hope that's the case and it just wasn't Ironsource making a pitch to TP by saying "Add offer wall, hook players on it, profit!!!"
To me, at least so far, it looks like the approach from WR/TP is to simply ignore the problem and hope it just goes away.
If there is no official response before COB today, I will feel more confident in my assumption that the devs are not paying attention to the things that matter to the players.