While the research is cool, and *technically* DB/TP/WRG/whatever can do whatever whenever according to the rules, it's ultimately not an issue about the rules.
It's more about the decision-makers showing their true colors and their tone deafness.
Why throw the banhammer when rolling back the claims appear to have worked pretty well?
Why release a replacement pack in a matter of hours?
Why not roll out an explanation on what was considered 'exploitation'?
Bans and punishments can be doled out anytime.
Instead, they were worried more about profits and functionality first.
Again, I disagree with your assessment. When you press a button that TP programmed into the game, even if they didn’t mean to put it there, it is NOT AN EXPLOIT. I played their game. It’s not my fault if their developers and/or quality control people didn’t do their job properly.
It was a new button that differentiated today’s pack from yesterday’s pack, which I assumed was intentionally added for surprise player benefit. I only ‘claimed’ the pack once, then utilized the newly added “buy more” button functionality as TP designed and implemented it.
No exploiting. No cheating. No breach of ToS.
I played their game. It’s not my fault TP messed their own game up.
And you're free to disagree.
However, I think you'll find most courts would agree that it would constitute using an exploit or the like.
If you feel that strongly, I encourage you to file for arbitration, as is your right.
Just to reaffirm, I do not believe you are to blame. But legally, you may be responsible, fair or not.
Again, I disagree with your assessment. When you press a button that TP programmed into the game, even if they didn’t mean to put it there, it is NOT AN EXPLOIT. I played their game. It’s not my fault if their developers and/or quality control people didn’t do their job properly.
It was a new button that differentiated today’s pack from yesterday’s pack, which I assumed was intentionally added for surprise player benefit. I only ‘claimed’ the pack once, then utilized the newly added “buy more” button functionality as TP designed and implemented it.
No exploiting. No cheating. No breach of ToS.
I played their game. It’s not my fault TP messed their own game up.
And you're free to disagree.
However, I think you'll find most courts would agree that it would constitute using an exploit or the like.
If you feel that strongly, I encourage you to file for arbitration, as is your right.
Just to reaffirm, I do not believe you are to blame. But legally, you may be responsible, fair or not.
I don’t like the statement in Shan’s announcement that it was an obvious error that was exploited, when there was in fact a brand new functionality introduced. Had I been clicking a ‘click once’ button over and over, then I could understand. However, I only claimed the pack once, as advertised. TP added new functionality and I simply clicked the shiny new button, first out of honest curiosity, then because I thought it was one of those “other surprises” that Ben mentioned on the podcast. I really did think it was goodwill for players to drive excitement about the new feature. I also assumed I’d only be able to click the ‘buy more’ button a set number of times.
Furthermore, I have no issue with TP admitting they made a mistake, and asking me to return stuff (credits, ISM, and constellations/polestars) that I was never meant to receive.
If all they did was correct THEIR ERROR, I would have moved on without giving it a second thought.
Taking all my resources related to the new feature, even stuff I earned prior to today, and then banning me for 72-hours is completely unwarranted. All I did was play the game, including what I honestly believed was newly added functionality.
Respectfully, clicking a button that says, "Buy Again" is doing exactly what the button says to do. If TP doesn't take some manner of currency for each press of the button, how is that something other than "the intended use"? It's not a bot. It's a finger. Pressing a button. That says "Buy Again".
I know you disagree with what they did, as I do. I wasn't banned and didn't click the "Buy Again" button, but only because I was sending shuttles for the event. If I had seen it, I'm sure I would have clicked, and who knows how many times. It isn't my job to figure out if a button that says "Press Me" is a bug or a feature.
Whether or not legal action is appropriate, this is clearly a terrible way for a company to handle a mistake that they made. The best way to send that message is to cut off their cash flow, and I see a large number of long-time players doing exactly that.
Without a clear and profuse apology, there's no way they'll ever see another penny of my money. Not even a $0.99 credit boost.
This pack was announced as being available once per day and displayed a purchase limit of 1. The fact that it was claimable more than once was clearly a bug.
As the actual pack had this information, as per Shan, using it more than once is certainly a violation of its intended use.
—as there are often bugs, how was one to determine which was the bug? If one didn’t read the fine print of “purchase limit of 1” and simply clicked the big yellow “Claim” button immediately without looking, once inside the pack all you then saw was a big yellow “Buy Again” to click. I see what you’re saying, but I still can’t agree with it being a violation of its intended use when the “Buy Again” button is there, able to click, and works, seemingly an “intended use”.
If one had gone back and “Claimed” the pack multiple times, that’s a different story.
The important information here is Using, developing or distributing any “bot”, spider, unauthorized script, unauthorized scraper or offline reader, or any other cheat, exploit, mod, bot, hack or the like, or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify or interfere with or provide automated access to or use of the Tilting Point Services (including for purposes of accumulating “digital” or “virtual goods” or “virtual currency” or bypassing features that otherwise require payment)
It's clear that there were players who knowingly and admitted to having used this exploit to gain access to the packs, to accumulate virtual goods. It's hard to
—- It’s hard for me to see this as applicable from the wording, since nobody technically utilized an exploit; as in, created, searched for, or found a way around; people merely clicked a button that was provided to them. Yes, eventually everyone realized it was a glitch (some later than others) and I agree with the resources being taken away even though it was still a mistake on the games part. The apparent “stealing” of previously obtained resources, banning, and punishment of all members due to that banning is abhorrent.
Not to mention that the “exploiting” number starts at 20 of the “Buy Again” clicks, interesting.
Wow! Taking back and more the ISM and constellations is one thing.
Banning your customers for using your product is an other. I will loose my daily rewards and monthly card, progress in event.... Shans words sounds like as I am a criminal who has to be punished.
Sounds as the beginn of my end playing this game and spend money.
If I recall there was something about the new feature being in development for months , going live, getting interest, and in just a couple of days of being live with there still being a big learning curve, this occurs. Sigh. I didn’t know about the “bug” but if I went back in time and was playing while it was active I believe I would think it was one of the surprises we were told to expect. Yes there was an announcement about there being a daily claim, although in honesty I skim over most of those and delete them. I believe there was nothing mentioned about any “ buy more” buttons though. Why add a button to buy more if using it causes a player to be compared to a thief? Players are not responsible for quality testing, companies are. I’ll dig up an oldie for everyone to hum along with while waiting for the “ban” to end, or like myself not “banned”, but deciding just how far to continue riding the train while the conductors debate on whether the passengers are truly at fault for the derailment or the taped on sign that said “brakes” and must have fallen off was actually to blame. Sing with me “Where have all the testers gone?”
Reminds me of a Voyager Episode: A TP employee was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river. The fox said no. If I do that you'll do something stupid and I'll drown. The TP employee assured him. If I did that, we'd both drown. So the fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the TP employee climbed up on his back, and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the TP employee did something stupid. As they both sank, the fox turned to the TP employee and said why did you do that? Now you'll drown too. I couldn't help it, said the TP employee, being stupid is my nature.
between this and the malware infested "offers" scheme they tried to roll out, makes it pretty clear that someone's doing a "revenue at any cost" approach with this game. Wouldn't surprise me if they fired most of the experienced dev team and this bug of theirs was some first year or intern coder who didn't know any better.
I tell you what TP. If you want to punish me for your mistake you will refund me everything I've ever spent on this wretched game.
They collect our cashy folding money electronically. That makes anything that would involve law enforcement FEDERAL, since that counts as "across state lines".......
And " via wire". That is specifically part of the RICO Act.
Taking what you had before the mess up would be theft. Are any of the banned players in the zero value states? Indiana used to be, but now it has to be $750 to be a felony. Though you can legally kill someone committing a felony here and their life insurance doesn't even pay out- it is classed like suicide...
File a theft charge with the state police. Make life very unpleasant anyway you can think of legally.
Remind me of the exact text. The offer says basically "FREE" blah blah and then "Limit of one Daily" right? I would read that to mean only one free one could be claimed daily. The button of doom said "Buy". You wouldn't be claiming another free one. You are agreeing to buy another pack for an unstated sum. That the sum was not collected wouldn't be the buyers' fault.
It's like something not ringing up at the checkout. You might not realize for a while or at all that it didn't take. If you didn't know how much of what it was costing, nor the exact amounts of the, what, six currencies we are up to now you had when you started, you have no way of knowing whether you are paying or not. If someone got a hundred or more and is punished, that would be one thing. Someone hits it a few times, trying to figure out what this glitchy mess is doing now, that is something else. And don't punish their squad and fleet. The new daily is hard enough on them. One of my squad mates left for a more active fleet because of this.
I can understand penalizing mega grabbers. I can understand reaming the employee at fault. But punishing everyone in some way for an IN-HOUSE mistake, frankly, whoever decided that should be now deciding which hole the lit road flare gets shoved into.
W.W. CarlislePlayed since January 20, 2019Captain Level- 99 (May 9, 2022)VIP 14Crew Quarters: 485/485Most recent/Lowest- Anbo-jyutsu Kyle Riker (1/5* Lvl 30) 5/29/23Immortalized x-866 5* x184, 4* x 490, 3* x91, 2* x62, and 1* x27Most recent Immortal - Tearful Janeway 4* 5/25/23Current non-event project- Improving my Science base skill. Retrieval Project- Mestral 1/5*
This was an absurd and arbitrary overreaction that has convinced me that spending further on the game is a mistake. They didn't ban me, but they may as well have. I couldn't be any more demoralized than I am right now.
> "This pack was announced as being available once per day and displayed a purchase limit of 1. The fact that it was claimable more than once was clearly a bug."
Clear to the author of the announcement? Sure. Clear to new players who don't read the announcements, or to the many thousands of non-English speakers who _can't_ read the announcements? No. For anyone who doesn't know, STT announcements go out in English only, and there is no translation available in game or in the forums. Crew retrieval is brand new. New players, or players who don't speak English, can't be expected to understand that pushing a free stuff button once is okay but pushing it 20 times is not okay.
One day prior, there were two free claimable giveaways, and then yesterday there was a single claimable that didn't go away after you clicked it. To not expect players to click it again in this context is daft. Additionally, the bans hurt everyone, not just the players who were banned. They hurt fleets that won't make dailies. They hurt squad leaders who won't get VP from a banned squad member, and they hurt squad members who can't use a shared crew because the squad leader was banned before the squad leader could share a crew.
In their communications about this issue, WRG hung their hat on the word "exploit" from the TOS because it sounds like a scary and important word that can justify the bans, but they are misusing the word to the point of abuse. Did players exploit a bug, in the common meaning of the word "exploit?" Probably. But what the players did was not a computer "exploit" as a term of art and not an "exploit" as it appears in the TOS.
> "Daily Retrieve Pack Exploit 2021-02-11"
No fair reading of the TOS can conclude that clicking on a button that said "buy again," again, is an exploit. The word "exploit" appears once in TOS and isn't defined, but the context suggests this ain't it. First of all, the term comes under the heading of Security Rules as quoted below, and the button in play here has nothing to do with security.
> "SECURITY RULES
Violations of computing, system or network security may result in civil or criminal liability. "
Secondly, "exploit" appears in a sentence containing a long list of things that sound like affirmative hacking, not just clicking a button in the UI that is designed to be clicked.
> "Using, developing or distributing any “bot”, spider, unauthorized script, unauthorized scraper or offline reader, or any other cheat, exploit, mod, bot, hack or the like, or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify or interfere with or provide automated access to or use of the Tilting Point Services..."
If the term exploit is ambiguous in this context (and I don't think it is), then that ambiguity is construed against the drafter, TP. To conclude that this was an "exploit" requires a reading of the TOS that’s at best disingenuous, and at worst made in bad faith.
As it stands, my wallet is closed. I can't imagine an apology meaningful enough to make me consider opening it again. I'm not sure if I want to keep playing. I like the IP, and I like the cards I've collected. Everything else about the game is depressing. The constant errors, the bugs, the poor communication, these are things I've learned to live with in the past. However, now that WRG is punishing players for WRG's own bugs, the game doesn't seem fun anymore.
While I agree a 3 day ban is harsh, imo, I still think a ban was required. Whether it was an hour or a day, and here's why:
The offers that I've seen in game, especially limited offers, have had a claim limit(usually 1 or 2). This particular offer was claimable once and was listed as so.
People are claiming it was fine print, some claiming they never read it. I have bad news for you, fine print is still legally binding, whether you read it or not.
People claiming there was a buy again button, yet there was no price listed or approval needed. so the price could have been $5 a pop and you would've kept clicking until you ran out of funds? Sorry not buying the excuse. Especially when players weren't being charged anything.
The package included: 100,000 credits, 1000 ISM and a Constellation, all of which were clearly shown. Yet right beside the offer was another offer for $500,000 credits for $1. This offer also had a 1 per day on it, which was no more or less visible than on the CR package.
So TP is giving away a boatload of credits for free, when they have an offer selling credits and simultaneously have achievements giving away credits for doing scans(buyable with ISM)?
Let's make this clear for all the slow people in the room, this was a bug and unscrupulous people were exploiting the bug. A few players came right out and said they knew it was a bug, exploited said bug and proudly stated they'd do it again given the option. So many people on here that are so full of poo. Faux outrage for being caught doing something they knew was wrong and being punished for it. While others are supporting them, making it very clear they would have done the same thing given a chance.
The Devs might a screwed up, it doesn't make any of you better.
While I agree a 3 day ban is harsh, imo, I still think a ban was required. Whether it was an hour or a day, and here's why:
The offers that I've seen in game, especially limited offers, have had a claim limit(usually 1 or 2). This particular offer was claimable once and was listed as so.
People are claiming it was fine print, some claiming they never read it. I have bad news for you, fine print is still legally binding, whether you read it or not.
People claiming there was a buy again button, yet there was no price listed or approval needed. so the price could have been $5 a pop and you would've kept clicking until you ran out of funds? Sorry not buying the excuse. Especially when players weren't being charged anything.
The package included: 100,000 credits, 1000 ISM and a Constellation, all of which were clearly shown. Yet right beside the offer was another offer for $500,000 credits for $1. This offer also had a 1 per day on it, which was no more or less visible than on the CR package.
So TP is giving away a boatload of credits for free, when they have an offer selling credits and simultaneously have achievements giving away credits for doing scans(buyable with ISM)?
Let's make this clear for all the slow people in the room, this was a bug and unscrupulous people were exploiting the bug. A few players came right out and said they knew it was a bug, exploited said bug and proudly stated they'd do it again given the option. So many people on here that are so full of poo. Faux outrage for being caught doing something they knew was wrong and being punished for it. While others are supporting them, making it very clear they would have done the same thing given a chance.
The Devs might a screwed up, it doesn't make any of you better.
Nope.
This would have been prevented if the programmers did their job and tested it. They didnt.
You cant punish people for something that the programmers were in charge of.
Just linking this here to promote the idea of a protest song, based on the “Wellerman sea shanty” phenomenon?!
Maybe this is drawing attention? Stuff on this forum is locked up on this from. Real stuff is going on at social media.
If you want to enforce a reaction by TP/WRG, it that route.
(when us my impeachment trial for inciting unrest held by TP’s CS team?)
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While I agree a 3 day ban is harsh, imo, I still think a ban was required. Whether it was an hour or a day, and here's why:
The offers that I've seen in game, especially limited offers, have had a claim limit(usually 1 or 2). This particular offer was claimable once and was listed as so.
People are claiming it was fine print, some claiming they never read it. I have bad news for you, fine print is still legally binding, whether you read it or not.
People claiming there was a buy again button, yet there was no price listed or approval needed. so the price could have been $5 a pop and you would've kept clicking until you ran out of funds? Sorry not buying the excuse. Especially when players weren't being charged anything.
The package included: 100,000 credits, 1000 ISM and a Constellation, all of which were clearly shown. Yet right beside the offer was another offer for $500,000 credits for $1. This offer also had a 1 per day on it, which was no more or less visible than on the CR package.
So TP is giving away a boatload of credits for free, when they have an offer selling credits and simultaneously have achievements giving away credits for doing scans(buyable with ISM)?
Let's make this clear for all the slow people in the room, this was a bug and unscrupulous people were exploiting the bug. A few players came right out and said they knew it was a bug, exploited said bug and proudly stated they'd do it again given the option. So many people on here that are so full of poo. Faux outrage for being caught doing something they knew was wrong and being punished for it. While others are supporting them, making it very clear they would have done the same thing given a chance.
The Devs might a screwed up, it doesn't make any of you better.
The fine print said players could only claim the pack once. There was no fine print or any other explanation telling players about the newly added 'buy again' functionality. That button wasn't on the pack sub-screen the previous day, but TP added it yesterday, so players interacted with it.
I didn't claim the pack more than once. I did use the new functionality as much as I could before I received the tribble message.
Process for money refund on Google is easy. Just go to purchase history and applie for last 2. So last premium campaign and monthly card. More of that is denied.
After much consideration I will be stopping any monetary support that I had planned. I will also be boycotting ad warps. I feel this “bug” was less game changing than the honor dump of a couple years ago. At the time of the honor dump most people spent it quickly in the hopes it would be harder to take back. The devs response was “we messed up, happy holidays”. Seems there could have been a similar response this time. It takes 18 days to get enough quantum to craft a 5*. Seems less game changing to have more polestars that are of limited use than it was to get 200k worth of honor.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
> "This pack was announced as being available once per day and displayed a purchase limit of 1. The fact that it was claimable more than once was clearly a bug."
Clear to the author of the announcement? Sure. Clear to new players who don't read the announcements, or to the many thousands of non-English speakers who _can't_ read the announcements? No. For anyone who doesn't know, STT announcements go out in English only, and there is no translation available in game or in the forums. Crew retrieval is brand new. New players, or players who don't speak English, can't be expected to understand that pushing a free stuff button once is okay but pushing it 20 times is not okay.
Musing on it 24 hours later, do you know what makes it far more offensive to me? Announcements and messages do not work due to the nature of this buggy game. I have to restart before i get any notifications of new messages in my inbox. Otherwise, absolutely no indication of announcement , message or update. Hell i don't even get notifications for arena drops any more or event updates. Haven t in about 9 months. So "clear to the author of the announcement" is as much a cop out excuse from the devs as anything else I've heard so far.
After much consideration I will be stopping any monetary support that I had planned. I will also be boycotting ad warps. I feel this “bug” was less game changing than the honor dump of a couple years ago. At the time of the honor dump most people spent it quickly in the hopes it would be harder to take back. The devs response was “we messed up, happy holidays”. Seems there could have been a similar response this time. It takes 18 days to get enough quantum to craft a 5*. Seems less game changing to have more polestars that are of limited use than it was to get 200k worth of honor.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
They have further plans with this feature and it sounds like the constellations and ISM would have created a huge imbalance with these implementations yet to come.
We do not see the full picture here.
But just shrugging and saying "sorry to everyone who got nothing, and the rest: enjoy your stuff" would have been an aweful move, even if there was nothing more to come to this feature. Imo much worse than what they actually did.
Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
After much consideration I will be stopping any monetary support that I had planned. I will also be boycotting ad warps. I feel this “bug” was less game changing than the honor dump of a couple years ago. At the time of the honor dump most people spent it quickly in the hopes it would be harder to take back. The devs response was “we messed up, happy holidays”. Seems there could have been a similar response this time. It takes 18 days to get enough quantum to craft a 5*. Seems less game changing to have more polestars that are of limited use than it was to get 200k worth of honor.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
They have further plans with this feature and it sounds like the constellations and ISM would have created a huge imbalance with these implementations yet to come.
We do not see the full picture here.
But just shrugging and saying "sorry to everyone who got nothing, and the rest: enjoy your stuff" would have been an aweful move, even if there was nothing more to come to this feature. Imo much worse than what they actually did.
I agree. There is no way they could have solved this to everyone's satisfaction once it had happened.
But I also think that most of the players who pulled extra packs would have been ok with those being removed from their account and would have ultimately accepted the possibility of losing a little of their previously obtained stuff because of it. Especially if WRG/TP had still sent out the message they sent out now to make up for the mistake.
The issue was the ban and the wording in the statement. Considering that the playerbase has been used for years to bugs, exploits and accidental drops that never get fixed or rolled back and that this is a game that heavily relies on the players' willingness to gamble on a small chance to get something better than expected, there was no way they wouldn't tap on a "buy again" button. The company should know this.
That being said, if there really was a problem with the accounts once they tried to remove the items, they had no other choice than to suspend them and fix it manually. Why they described it as a ban, I don't know. Maybe they were in a hurry to make a quick decision.
It's also possible that this is TP's policy and they just had to enforce it.
At times, I feel this is how management decisions are made...
How is it that no one at TP saw their own reaction to this situation... as a poor avenue of recourse?
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Reminds me of a Voyager Episode: A TP employee was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river. The fox said no. If I do that you'll do something stupid and I'll drown. The TP employee assured him. If I did that, we'd both drown. So the fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the TP employee climbed up on his back, and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the TP employee did something stupid. As they both sank, the fox turned to the TP employee and said why did you do that? Now you'll drown too. I couldn't help it, said the TP employee, being stupid is my nature.
Yes i agree we don't have the full picture here but who's fault is that? Ours the players or theirs by not sharing any kind of info on what they plan to do? Sadly the lack of QA will kill this game.
After much consideration I will be stopping any monetary support that I had planned. I will also be boycotting ad warps. I feel this “bug” was less game changing than the honor dump of a couple years ago. At the time of the honor dump most people spent it quickly in the hopes it would be harder to take back. The devs response was “we messed up, happy holidays”. Seems there could have been a similar response this time. It takes 18 days to get enough quantum to craft a 5*. Seems less game changing to have more polestars that are of limited use than it was to get 200k worth of honor.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
They have further plans with this feature and it sounds like the constellations and ISM would have created a huge imbalance with these implementations yet to come.
We do not see the full picture here.
But just shrugging and saying "sorry to everyone who got nothing, and the rest: enjoy your stuff" would have been an aweful move, even if there was nothing more to come to this feature. Imo much worse than what they actually did.
I agree. There is no way they could have solved this to everyone's satisfaction once it had happened.
But I also think that most of the players who pulled extra packs would have been ok with those being removed from their account and would have ultimately accepted the possibility of losing a little of their previously obtained stuff because of it. Especially if WRG/TP had still sent out the message they sent out now to make up for the mistake.
The issue was the ban and the wording in the statement. Considering that the playerbase has been used for years to bugs, exploits and accidental drops that never get fixed or rolled back and that this is a game that heavily relies on the players' willingness to gamble on a small chance to get something better than expected, there was no way they wouldn't tap on a "buy again" button. The company should know this.
That being said, if there really was a problem with the accounts once they tried to remove the items, they had no other choice than to suspend them and fix it manually. Why they described it as a ban, I don't know. Maybe they were in a hurry to make a quick decision.
It's also possible that this is TP's policy and they just had to enforce it.
If there was a huge problem, they should have said it from the start and promised to compensate those affected another way once the accounts were fixed, but none of that was done. There was no explanation other than “players hit this button we put into the game more than once, so those players are locked out of their accounts for three days as punishment for exploiting something that in technical terms is not even an exploit since we put it there to begin with”. WRG/TP decimated players’ trusts, pushed big spenders away, and caused anyone staying to close their wallets for good. If there was a big problem, they would not have had to have Shan post an empty apology. I honestly think the whole “it screwed up accounts” in that post was a half-arsed cover for their own major mistake because they do not want to admit they screwed up royally.
There are three ways to do something; the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway.
After much consideration I will be stopping any monetary support that I had planned. I will also be boycotting ad warps. I feel this “bug” was less game changing than the honor dump of a couple years ago. At the time of the honor dump most people spent it quickly in the hopes it would be harder to take back. The devs response was “we messed up, happy holidays”. Seems there could have been a similar response this time. It takes 18 days to get enough quantum to craft a 5*. Seems less game changing to have more polestars that are of limited use than it was to get 200k worth of honor.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
They have further plans with this feature and it sounds like the constellations and ISM would have created a huge imbalance with these implementations yet to come.
We do not see the full picture here.
But just shrugging and saying "sorry to everyone who got nothing, and the rest: enjoy your stuff" would have been an aweful move, even if there was nothing more to come to this feature. Imo much worse than what they actually did.
I agree. There is no way they could have solved this to everyone's satisfaction once it had happened.
But I also think that most of the players who pulled extra packs would have been ok with those being removed from their account and would have ultimately accepted the possibility of losing a little of their previously obtained stuff because of it. Especially if WRG/TP had still sent out the message they sent out now to make up for the mistake.
The issue was the ban and the wording in the statement. Considering that the playerbase has been used for years to bugs, exploits and accidental drops that never get fixed or rolled back and that this is a game that heavily relies on the players' willingness to gamble on a small chance to get something better than expected, there was no way they wouldn't tap on a "buy again" button. The company should know this.
That being said, if there really was a problem with the accounts once they tried to remove the items, they had no other choice than to suspend them and fix it manually. Why they described it as a ban, I don't know. Maybe they were in a hurry to make a quick decision.
It's also possible that this is TP's policy and they just had to enforce it.
If there was a huge problem, they should have said it from the start and promised to compensate those affected another way once the accounts were fixed, but none of that was done. There was no explanation other than “players hit this button we put into the game more than once, so those players are locked out of their accounts for three days as punishment for exploiting something that in technical terms is not even an exploit since we put it there to begin with”. WRG/TP decimated players’ trusts, pushed big spenders away, and caused anyone staying to close their wallets for good. If there was a big problem, they would not have had to have Shan post an empty apology. I honestly think the whole “it screwed up accounts” in that post was a half-arsed cover for their own major mistake because they do not want to admit they screwed up royally.
I think if this had not had something to do with the thing they had been working on for months the reaction would have been different. This is the big thing they have been working on for six months or more and then right after it goes live this bug happens with players getting huge amounts of the new items that ruins all their hard work.
After much consideration I will be stopping any monetary support that I had planned. I will also be boycotting ad warps. I feel this “bug” was less game changing than the honor dump of a couple years ago. At the time of the honor dump most people spent it quickly in the hopes it would be harder to take back. The devs response was “we messed up, happy holidays”. Seems there could have been a similar response this time. It takes 18 days to get enough quantum to craft a 5*. Seems less game changing to have more polestars that are of limited use than it was to get 200k worth of honor.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
They have further plans with this feature and it sounds like the constellations and ISM would have created a huge imbalance with these implementations yet to come.
We do not see the full picture here.
But just shrugging and saying "sorry to everyone who got nothing, and the rest: enjoy your stuff" would have been an aweful move, even if there was nothing more to come to this feature. Imo much worse than what they actually did.
I agree. There is no way they could have solved this to everyone's satisfaction once it had happened.
But I also think that most of the players who pulled extra packs would have been ok with those being removed from their account and would have ultimately accepted the possibility of losing a little of their previously obtained stuff because of it. Especially if WRG/TP had still sent out the message they sent out now to make up for the mistake.
The issue was the ban and the wording in the statement. Considering that the playerbase has been used for years to bugs, exploits and accidental drops that never get fixed or rolled back and that this is a game that heavily relies on the players' willingness to gamble on a small chance to get something better than expected, there was no way they wouldn't tap on a "buy again" button. The company should know this.
That being said, if there really was a problem with the accounts once they tried to remove the items, they had no other choice than to suspend them and fix it manually. Why they described it as a ban, I don't know. Maybe they were in a hurry to make a quick decision.
It's also possible that this is TP's policy and they just had to enforce it.
If there was a huge problem, they should have said it from the start and promised to compensate those affected another way once the accounts were fixed, but none of that was done. There was no explanation other than “players hit this button we put into the game more than once, so those players are locked out of their accounts for three days as punishment for exploiting something that in technical terms is not even an exploit since we put it there to begin with”. WRG/TP decimated players’ trusts, pushed big spenders away, and caused anyone staying to close their wallets for good. If there was a big problem, they would not have had to have Shan post an empty apology. I honestly think the whole “it screwed up accounts” in that post was a half-arsed cover for their own major mistake because they do not want to admit they screwed up royally.
I think if this had not had something to do with the thing they had been working on for months the reaction would have been different. This is the big thing they have been working on for six months or more and then right after it goes live this bug happens with players getting huge amounts of the new items that ruins all their hard work.
How would it have negatively impacted them? As others pointed out, those people would have probably spent a whole lot of money to purchase Dilithium to replenish Credits and Quantum to be able to grab crew they wanted. Even with hundreds of Constellations to open, there are so many common traits amongst so many crew (Starfleet, Human, Etc.) and some very specific traits (Reman, Chameloid, etc) that most Polestars obtained would have not really helped narrow down their choices beyond a handful of crew. When people get a good taste of something, they will naturally want more and do whatever necessary to obtain that more. By WRG/TP pulling what they did, they effectively cut off their nose to spite their face and caused wounds that will never heal. Now, big spenders are no longer spending or even in the game anymore. Anyone who spent some here or there have closed their wallets. More just left for good. There are now many negative reviews in each platforms’ app stores that will prevent any possible new players from joining. These platform companies also now have the app on radar after many complaints and refund requests that they are looking into. This is all because they acted in such a stupid way to something that was a result of their incompetence that they are refusing to even acknowledge was on them.
Instead of getting more money from those with open wallets to accommodate the stack of items for the new interesting feature, they are now heading toward the game disintegrating and becoming nothing more than a memory after all of these years.
There are three ways to do something; the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway.
After much consideration I will be stopping any monetary support that I had planned. I will also be boycotting ad warps. I feel this “bug” was less game changing than the honor dump of a couple years ago. At the time of the honor dump most people spent it quickly in the hopes it would be harder to take back. The devs response was “we messed up, happy holidays”. Seems there could have been a similar response this time. It takes 18 days to get enough quantum to craft a 5*. Seems less game changing to have more polestars that are of limited use than it was to get 200k worth of honor.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
They have further plans with this feature and it sounds like the constellations and ISM would have created a huge imbalance with these implementations yet to come.
We do not see the full picture here.
But just shrugging and saying "sorry to everyone who got nothing, and the rest: enjoy your stuff" would have been an aweful move, even if there was nothing more to come to this feature. Imo much worse than what they actually did.
I agree. There is no way they could have solved this to everyone's satisfaction once it had happened.
But I also think that most of the players who pulled extra packs would have been ok with those being removed from their account and would have ultimately accepted the possibility of losing a little of their previously obtained stuff because of it. Especially if WRG/TP had still sent out the message they sent out now to make up for the mistake.
The issue was the ban and the wording in the statement. Considering that the playerbase has been used for years to bugs, exploits and accidental drops that never get fixed or rolled back and that this is a game that heavily relies on the players' willingness to gamble on a small chance to get something better than expected, there was no way they wouldn't tap on a "buy again" button. The company should know this.
That being said, if there really was a problem with the accounts once they tried to remove the items, they had no other choice than to suspend them and fix it manually. Why they described it as a ban, I don't know. Maybe they were in a hurry to make a quick decision.
It's also possible that this is TP's policy and they just had to enforce it.
If there was a huge problem, they should have said it from the start and promised to compensate those affected another way once the accounts were fixed, but none of that was done. There was no explanation other than “players hit this button we put into the game more than once, so those players are locked out of their accounts for three days as punishment for exploiting something that in technical terms is not even an exploit since we put it there to begin with”. WRG/TP decimated players’ trusts, pushed big spenders away, and caused anyone staying to close their wallets for good. If there was a big problem, they would not have had to have Shan post an empty apology. I honestly think the whole “it screwed up accounts” in that post was a half-arsed cover for their own major mistake because they do not want to admit they screwed up royally.
I think if this had not had something to do with the thing they had been working on for months the reaction would have been different. This is the big thing they have been working on for six months or more and then right after it goes live this bug happens with players getting huge amounts of the new items that ruins all their hard work.
How would it have negatively impacted them? As others pointed out, those people would have probably spent a whole lot of money to purchase Dilithium to replenish Credits and Quantum to be able to grab crew they wanted. Even with hundreds of Constellations to open, there are so many common traits amongst so many crew (Starfleet, Human, Etc.) and some very specific traits (Reman, Chameloid, etc) that most Polestars obtained would have not really helped narrow down their choices beyond a handful of crew. When people get a good taste of something, they will naturally want more and do whatever necessary to obtain that more. By WRG/TP pulling what they did, they effectively cut off their nose to spite their face and caused wounds that will never heal. Now, big spenders are no longer spending or even in the game anymore. Anyone who spent some here or there have closed their wallets. More just left for good. There are now many negative reviews in each platforms’ app stores that will prevent any possible new players from joining. These platform companies also now have the app on radar after many complaints and refund requests that they are looking into. This is all because they acted in such a stupid way to something that was a result of their incompetence that they are refusing to even acknowledge was on them.
Instead of getting more money from those with open wallets to accommodate the stack of items for the new interesting feature, they are now heading toward the game disintegrating and becoming nothing more than a memory after all of these years.
It would most definitely negatively impact them if someone had access to 300 polestars, allowing them to retrieve any crew of their choice. Even if it's not an immediate thing.
This game is mainly focused on getting crew and that's what people spend their money for. People will spend a lot less if they know for sure that they'll be able to get everyone they want within a couple of months, even if they should drop some dilithium for quantum.
Also, can you imagine the reaction of the playerbase if 10/100/1000 players had been allowed to keep all those polestars and use them?
Comments
It's more about the decision-makers showing their true colors and their tone deafness.
Why throw the banhammer when rolling back the claims appear to have worked pretty well?
Why release a replacement pack in a matter of hours?
Why not roll out an explanation on what was considered 'exploitation'?
Bans and punishments can be doled out anytime.
Instead, they were worried more about profits and functionality first.
And you're free to disagree.
However, I think you'll find most courts would agree that it would constitute using an exploit or the like.
If you feel that strongly, I encourage you to file for arbitration, as is your right.
Just to reaffirm, I do not believe you are to blame. But legally, you may be responsible, fair or not.
I don’t like the statement in Shan’s announcement that it was an obvious error that was exploited, when there was in fact a brand new functionality introduced. Had I been clicking a ‘click once’ button over and over, then I could understand. However, I only claimed the pack once, as advertised. TP added new functionality and I simply clicked the shiny new button, first out of honest curiosity, then because I thought it was one of those “other surprises” that Ben mentioned on the podcast. I really did think it was goodwill for players to drive excitement about the new feature. I also assumed I’d only be able to click the ‘buy more’ button a set number of times.
Furthermore, I have no issue with TP admitting they made a mistake, and asking me to return stuff (credits, ISM, and constellations/polestars) that I was never meant to receive.
If all they did was correct THEIR ERROR, I would have moved on without giving it a second thought.
Taking all my resources related to the new feature, even stuff I earned prior to today, and then banning me for 72-hours is completely unwarranted. All I did was play the game, including what I honestly believed was newly added functionality.
I know you disagree with what they did, as I do. I wasn't banned and didn't click the "Buy Again" button, but only because I was sending shuttles for the event. If I had seen it, I'm sure I would have clicked, and who knows how many times. It isn't my job to figure out if a button that says "Press Me" is a bug or a feature.
Whether or not legal action is appropriate, this is clearly a terrible way for a company to handle a mistake that they made. The best way to send that message is to cut off their cash flow, and I see a large number of long-time players doing exactly that.
Without a clear and profuse apology, there's no way they'll ever see another penny of my money. Not even a $0.99 credit boost.
--[RR] JC Ravel
As the actual pack had this information, as per Shan, using it more than once is certainly a violation of its intended use.
—as there are often bugs, how was one to determine which was the bug? If one didn’t read the fine print of “purchase limit of 1” and simply clicked the big yellow “Claim” button immediately without looking, once inside the pack all you then saw was a big yellow “Buy Again” to click. I see what you’re saying, but I still can’t agree with it being a violation of its intended use when the “Buy Again” button is there, able to click, and works, seemingly an “intended use”.
If one had gone back and “Claimed” the pack multiple times, that’s a different story.
The important information here is Using, developing or distributing any “bot”, spider, unauthorized script, unauthorized scraper or offline reader, or any other cheat, exploit, mod, bot, hack or the like, or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify or interfere with or provide automated access to or use of the Tilting Point Services (including for purposes of accumulating “digital” or “virtual goods” or “virtual currency” or bypassing features that otherwise require payment)
It's clear that there were players who knowingly and admitted to having used this exploit to gain access to the packs, to accumulate virtual goods. It's hard to
—- It’s hard for me to see this as applicable from the wording, since nobody technically utilized an exploit; as in, created, searched for, or found a way around; people merely clicked a button that was provided to them. Yes, eventually everyone realized it was a glitch (some later than others) and I agree with the resources being taken away even though it was still a mistake on the games part. The apparent “stealing” of previously obtained resources, banning, and punishment of all members due to that banning is abhorrent.
Not to mention that the “exploiting” number starts at 20 of the “Buy Again” clicks, interesting.
Thank you for the info 😊not arguing with you lol
Banning your customers for using your product is an other. I will loose my daily rewards and monthly card, progress in event.... Shans words sounds like as I am a criminal who has to be punished.
Sounds as the beginn of my end playing this game and spend money.
And " via wire". That is specifically part of the RICO Act.
Taking what you had before the mess up would be theft. Are any of the banned players in the zero value states? Indiana used to be, but now it has to be $750 to be a felony. Though you can legally kill someone committing a felony here and their life insurance doesn't even pay out- it is classed like suicide...
File a theft charge with the state police. Make life very unpleasant anyway you can think of legally.
Remind me of the exact text. The offer says basically "FREE" blah blah and then "Limit of one Daily" right? I would read that to mean only one free one could be claimed daily. The button of doom said "Buy". You wouldn't be claiming another free one. You are agreeing to buy another pack for an unstated sum. That the sum was not collected wouldn't be the buyers' fault.
It's like something not ringing up at the checkout. You might not realize for a while or at all that it didn't take. If you didn't know how much of what it was costing, nor the exact amounts of the, what, six currencies we are up to now you had when you started, you have no way of knowing whether you are paying or not. If someone got a hundred or more and is punished, that would be one thing. Someone hits it a few times, trying to figure out what this glitchy mess is doing now, that is something else. And don't punish their squad and fleet. The new daily is hard enough on them. One of my squad mates left for a more active fleet because of this.
I can understand penalizing mega grabbers. I can understand reaming the employee at fault. But punishing everyone in some way for an IN-HOUSE mistake, frankly, whoever decided that should be now deciding which hole the lit road flare gets shoved into.
> "This pack was announced as being available once per day and displayed a purchase limit of 1. The fact that it was claimable more than once was clearly a bug."
Clear to the author of the announcement? Sure. Clear to new players who don't read the announcements, or to the many thousands of non-English speakers who _can't_ read the announcements? No. For anyone who doesn't know, STT announcements go out in English only, and there is no translation available in game or in the forums. Crew retrieval is brand new. New players, or players who don't speak English, can't be expected to understand that pushing a free stuff button once is okay but pushing it 20 times is not okay.
One day prior, there were two free claimable giveaways, and then yesterday there was a single claimable that didn't go away after you clicked it. To not expect players to click it again in this context is daft. Additionally, the bans hurt everyone, not just the players who were banned. They hurt fleets that won't make dailies. They hurt squad leaders who won't get VP from a banned squad member, and they hurt squad members who can't use a shared crew because the squad leader was banned before the squad leader could share a crew.
In their communications about this issue, WRG hung their hat on the word "exploit" from the TOS because it sounds like a scary and important word that can justify the bans, but they are misusing the word to the point of abuse. Did players exploit a bug, in the common meaning of the word "exploit?" Probably. But what the players did was not a computer "exploit" as a term of art and not an "exploit" as it appears in the TOS.
> "Daily Retrieve Pack Exploit 2021-02-11"
No fair reading of the TOS can conclude that clicking on a button that said "buy again," again, is an exploit. The word "exploit" appears once in TOS and isn't defined, but the context suggests this ain't it. First of all, the term comes under the heading of Security Rules as quoted below, and the button in play here has nothing to do with security.
> "SECURITY RULES
Violations of computing, system or network security may result in civil or criminal liability. "
Secondly, "exploit" appears in a sentence containing a long list of things that sound like affirmative hacking, not just clicking a button in the UI that is designed to be clicked.
> "Using, developing or distributing any “bot”, spider, unauthorized script, unauthorized scraper or offline reader, or any other cheat, exploit, mod, bot, hack or the like, or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify or interfere with or provide automated access to or use of the Tilting Point Services..."
If the term exploit is ambiguous in this context (and I don't think it is), then that ambiguity is construed against the drafter, TP. To conclude that this was an "exploit" requires a reading of the TOS that’s at best disingenuous, and at worst made in bad faith.
As it stands, my wallet is closed. I can't imagine an apology meaningful enough to make me consider opening it again. I'm not sure if I want to keep playing. I like the IP, and I like the cards I've collected. Everything else about the game is depressing. The constant errors, the bugs, the poor communication, these are things I've learned to live with in the past. However, now that WRG is punishing players for WRG's own bugs, the game doesn't seem fun anymore.
The offers that I've seen in game, especially limited offers, have had a claim limit(usually 1 or 2). This particular offer was claimable once and was listed as so.
People are claiming it was fine print, some claiming they never read it. I have bad news for you, fine print is still legally binding, whether you read it or not.
People claiming there was a buy again button, yet there was no price listed or approval needed. so the price could have been $5 a pop and you would've kept clicking until you ran out of funds? Sorry not buying the excuse. Especially when players weren't being charged anything.
The package included: 100,000 credits, 1000 ISM and a Constellation, all of which were clearly shown. Yet right beside the offer was another offer for $500,000 credits for $1. This offer also had a 1 per day on it, which was no more or less visible than on the CR package.
So TP is giving away a boatload of credits for free, when they have an offer selling credits and simultaneously have achievements giving away credits for doing scans(buyable with ISM)?
Let's make this clear for all the slow people in the room, this was a bug and unscrupulous people were exploiting the bug. A few players came right out and said they knew it was a bug, exploited said bug and proudly stated they'd do it again given the option. So many people on here that are so full of poo. Faux outrage for being caught doing something they knew was wrong and being punished for it. While others are supporting them, making it very clear they would have done the same thing given a chance.
The Devs might a screwed up, it doesn't make any of you better.
Nope.
This would have been prevented if the programmers did their job and tested it. They didnt.
You cant punish people for something that the programmers were in charge of.
Just linking this here to promote the idea of a protest song, based on the “Wellerman sea shanty” phenomenon?!
Maybe this is drawing attention? Stuff on this forum is locked up on this from. Real stuff is going on at social media.
If you want to enforce a reaction by TP/WRG, it that route.
(when us my impeachment trial for inciting unrest held by TP’s CS team?)
The fine print said players could only claim the pack once. There was no fine print or any other explanation telling players about the newly added 'buy again' functionality. That button wasn't on the pack sub-screen the previous day, but TP added it yesterday, so players interacted with it.
I didn't claim the pack more than once. I did use the new functionality as much as I could before I received the tribble message.
If you are so inclined I would invite you to consider an ad warp boycott also.
Musing on it 24 hours later, do you know what makes it far more offensive to me? Announcements and messages do not work due to the nature of this buggy game. I have to restart before i get any notifications of new messages in my inbox. Otherwise, absolutely no indication of announcement , message or update. Hell i don't even get notifications for arena drops any more or event updates. Haven t in about 9 months. So "clear to the author of the announcement" is as much a cop out excuse from the devs as anything else I've heard so far.
They have further plans with this feature and it sounds like the constellations and ISM would have created a huge imbalance with these implementations yet to come.
We do not see the full picture here.
But just shrugging and saying "sorry to everyone who got nothing, and the rest: enjoy your stuff" would have been an aweful move, even if there was nothing more to come to this feature. Imo much worse than what they actually did.
I agree. There is no way they could have solved this to everyone's satisfaction once it had happened.
But I also think that most of the players who pulled extra packs would have been ok with those being removed from their account and would have ultimately accepted the possibility of losing a little of their previously obtained stuff because of it. Especially if WRG/TP had still sent out the message they sent out now to make up for the mistake.
The issue was the ban and the wording in the statement. Considering that the playerbase has been used for years to bugs, exploits and accidental drops that never get fixed or rolled back and that this is a game that heavily relies on the players' willingness to gamble on a small chance to get something better than expected, there was no way they wouldn't tap on a "buy again" button. The company should know this.
That being said, if there really was a problem with the accounts once they tried to remove the items, they had no other choice than to suspend them and fix it manually. Why they described it as a ban, I don't know. Maybe they were in a hurry to make a quick decision.
It's also possible that this is TP's policy and they just had to enforce it.
How is it that no one at TP saw their own reaction to this situation... as a poor avenue of recourse?
I nominate this for Comment of the Year!!
If there was a huge problem, they should have said it from the start and promised to compensate those affected another way once the accounts were fixed, but none of that was done. There was no explanation other than “players hit this button we put into the game more than once, so those players are locked out of their accounts for three days as punishment for exploiting something that in technical terms is not even an exploit since we put it there to begin with”. WRG/TP decimated players’ trusts, pushed big spenders away, and caused anyone staying to close their wallets for good. If there was a big problem, they would not have had to have Shan post an empty apology. I honestly think the whole “it screwed up accounts” in that post was a half-arsed cover for their own major mistake because they do not want to admit they screwed up royally.
DB: Do Better.
Member of Starship Trista.
I think if this had not had something to do with the thing they had been working on for months the reaction would have been different. This is the big thing they have been working on for six months or more and then right after it goes live this bug happens with players getting huge amounts of the new items that ruins all their hard work.
How would it have negatively impacted them? As others pointed out, those people would have probably spent a whole lot of money to purchase Dilithium to replenish Credits and Quantum to be able to grab crew they wanted. Even with hundreds of Constellations to open, there are so many common traits amongst so many crew (Starfleet, Human, Etc.) and some very specific traits (Reman, Chameloid, etc) that most Polestars obtained would have not really helped narrow down their choices beyond a handful of crew. When people get a good taste of something, they will naturally want more and do whatever necessary to obtain that more. By WRG/TP pulling what they did, they effectively cut off their nose to spite their face and caused wounds that will never heal. Now, big spenders are no longer spending or even in the game anymore. Anyone who spent some here or there have closed their wallets. More just left for good. There are now many negative reviews in each platforms’ app stores that will prevent any possible new players from joining. These platform companies also now have the app on radar after many complaints and refund requests that they are looking into. This is all because they acted in such a stupid way to something that was a result of their incompetence that they are refusing to even acknowledge was on them.
Instead of getting more money from those with open wallets to accommodate the stack of items for the new interesting feature, they are now heading toward the game disintegrating and becoming nothing more than a memory after all of these years.
DB: Do Better.
Member of Starship Trista.
It would most definitely negatively impact them if someone had access to 300 polestars, allowing them to retrieve any crew of their choice. Even if it's not an immediate thing.
This game is mainly focused on getting crew and that's what people spend their money for. People will spend a lot less if they know for sure that they'll be able to get everyone they want within a couple of months, even if they should drop some dilithium for quantum.
Also, can you imagine the reaction of the playerbase if 10/100/1000 players had been allowed to keep all those polestars and use them?