The Big Book Of Behold Advice WAS Shut Down In Protest (Now Back Up, See OP)

Captain Idol

Update: The Big Book Of Behold Advice has reopened and is now continuing to be updated again

Hello all. The Big Book Of Behold Advice, The Little Book Of Cadet Advice, The Super Hyper Stats/Backend Sheets and My Own Datacore Analysis Sheets have all shut down in protest of the offer wall. The message is as follows:

"Finding it unsafe and predatory, we do not believe the Offer Wall is an acceptable addition to the game we all love. We cannot in good conscience support a game that employs this system. While the Offer Wall remains, this resource and certain related resources will not continue. Thank you to the players for your years of feedback and support.*

-The Big Book team (Automaton_2000, StarsAndGarters, BigMcLargeHuge, Plain SimpleGarak and Captain Idol)"

[VIP0] Kooz

While this is an unfortunate development for the community, I support this decision and hope it leads to positive change. These tools provide insight that in the opinion of a lot of players improve game play enjoyment. TP should take note!

cmdrworf

I'm on the other side. As I am one of the main people that runs the Do Not Airlock Checklist, I will continue to keep it updated as I do not wish to punish the community. I'm withholding my personal opinions as too much is being stated without knowing all of the facts behind it and I do not wish to join the fray until we actually have all the facts.

[ISA] Big McLargeHuge

cmdrworf wrote: »

I'm on the other side. As I am one of the main people that runs the Do Not Airlock Checklist, I will continue to keep it updated as I do not wish to punish the community. I'm withholding my personal opinions as too much is being stated without knowing all of the facts behind it and I do not wish to join the fray until we actually have all the facts.

Those facts may never come, and certainly not in a format that the player base can independently verify to any level of scrutiny. I will certainly welcome them if they do.

By no means do we want to hurt anybody, but being a part of something that could cause damage to people in any way, whether it is intended or not, is not something any of us can be party to in good conscience.

Our voices are small, but they're all we have. Right now, we're saying no the only way we know how.

Fi®3wall

cmdrworf wrote: »

I'm on the other side. As I am one of the main people that runs the Do Not Airlock Checklist, I will continue to keep it updated as I do not wish to punish the community. I'm withholding my personal opinions as too much is being stated without knowing all of the facts behind it and I do not wish to join the fray until we actually have all the facts.

Ty

[10F]risky Dingo

While I'm a BIG can of having all the facts, I find it hard to deny that the offer-wall has predatory aspects. (Based entirely on testimonials.)

I'm still unsure about how I feel about the offer-wall (one reason being, not having all the facts), but I 100% support the decision, of the BBoBA team, to protest in this way.

I think it would be an even bigger loss, to the community, if the BBoBA gang decided to stop playing altogether. This is clearly important to them. I hope TP will take notice.

Captain Idol

Spaceman Spi[FF] wrote: »

While I'm a BIG can of having all the facts, I find it hard to deny that the paywall has predatory aspects. (Based entirely on testimonials.)

I'm still unsure about how I feel about the paywall (one reason being, not having all the facts), but I 100% support the decision, of the BBoBA team, to protest in this way.

I think it would be an even bigger loss, to the community, if the BBoBA gang decided to stop playing altogether. This is clearly important to them. I hope TP will take notice.

I can't speak to the others, but I have stated that I will stop playing whilst the offer wall is in existence.

<TGE> Donut

From what I've heard and seen, there are a mix of offers, between surveys, installing various apps, leveling in those apps, a few reward based on purchases in the apps. I've gotten a few dil via the offers, and if you don't want to go that path, that's up to you.

It may be useful to call out what specifically you view as predatory.

robownage

I applaud this move. I hope it helps move things along a bit quicker - I suspect TP bit off a bit more than they were prepared to chew and the apparent slow movement is disappointing.

<TGE> Donut wrote: »

From what I've heard and seen, there are a mix of offers, between surveys, installing various apps, leveling in those apps, a few reward based on purchases in the apps. I've gotten a few dil via the offers, and if you don't want to go that path, that's up to you.

It may be useful to call out what specifically you view as predatory.

I would recommend checking out one of the myriad of other threads on the subject - they cover the concerns quite effectively.

<TGE> Donut

robownage wrote: »

I would recommend checking out one of the myriad of other threads on the subject - they cover the concerns quite effectively.

Yes, I can read the other threads, I'm curious what the OP(s) examples are.

Data1001

Captain Idol, it's certainly your right to do so, but know that by suspending/ending these resources, you are indeed punishing the community, to borrow a phrase from cmdrworf. I guarantee you that TP will not care one iota about the resources being shut down. I, and many other players, however, will definitely miss them.

SkittishSloth

Data1001 wrote: »

Captain Idol, it's certainly your right to do so, but know that by suspending/ending these resources, you are indeed punishing the community, to borrow a phrase from cmdrworf. I guarantee you that TP will not care one iota about the resources being shut down. I, and many other players, however, will definitely miss them.

Completely agree that TP won't care, *but* this can also cause more people who *will* care to start pushing back. Maybe people haven't paid any attention to the forums, so they don't realize there even is a problem with the wall, but when they don't get any updates to the stuff they use to make decisions, they'll come and see what's going on. Then they'll put in their $0.02.

Personally, I 100% back you all for doing this, as much as I hate to see it happen - all of those resources are ones I refer to often, and I'm really not looking forward to having to think for myself to decide which crew is worth working on.

Automaton_2000

cmdrworf wrote: »

I'm on the other side. As I am one of the main people that runs the Do Not Airlock Checklist, I will continue to keep it updated as I do not wish to punish the community. I'm withholding my personal opinions as too much is being stated without knowing all of the facts behind it and I do not wish to join the fray until we actually have all the facts.

There are enough facts out there to determine that the offer wall, as it exists now, is damaging to the game and/or players. Recursive surveys designed to harvest personal information (regardless of if the game or offer wall is harvesting data too), an inbox bug allowing players to claim rewards multiple times, and TP/WRG taking no oversight over the offers or CS.

I've spent thousands of man hours and hundreds of my own dollars on the Big Book and other community resources. This has nothing to do with punishing the community. TP has already done that when their actions said that we are now the customer and the product. If TP's actions result in us leaving the game and shutting down these resources regardless, I find it more palatable to make our stance known now before it's too late (if it's not already).

<TGE> Donut wrote: »

It may be useful to call out what specifically you view as predatory.

It's been covered many times in the appropriate feedback thread (and now in many other threads as well).

Cpt_insano_2k1

Data1001 wrote: »

Captain Idol, it's certainly your right to do so, but know that by suspending/ending these resources, you are indeed punishing the community, to borrow a phrase from cmdrworf. I guarantee you that TP will not care one iota about the resources being shut down. I, and many other players, however, will definitely miss them.

I am in full support of suspending all community created resources. Up until now, TP was able to reap the rewards of a robust gaming community that spent much of its own time and energy developing resources for players that the developers never paid a penny for.

Yes, the community will suffer from not having these resources available. But the community is suffering far worse from the recent decisions made by TP/WR.

Dont blame the creators of these resources of doing something evil. This is in response to the direction that has been taken by tp/wr. Feel free to create your own resources and provide them for the community, data1001.

[10F]risky Dingo

Data1001 wrote: »

Captain Idol, it's certainly your right to do so, but know that by suspending/ending these resources, you are indeed punishing the community, to borrow a phrase from cmdrworf. I guarantee you that TP will not care one iota about the resources being shut down. I, and many other players, however, will definitely miss them.

It would be a shame, if TP didn't care; they should.

It seems clear, to me, that many long term players will quit, over the offer-wall. This is about as bad as it gets, for a community game. I really do hope TP takes notice.

cmdrworf

Yes, Surveys can harvest personal information, but the fact is, if you dont do they, there is no harm. You don't like it? Don't do it. If you like it do it. I just don't see the fuss. This is such commonplace in mobile apps now I don't see the extreme issue with it that some people have. But as I said, I'll withhold final judgement until we hear more (or it disappears which would confirm many peoples thoughts on it). Either way, I hope it resolves soon and things get back to normal. This is very reminiscent of the iampicard protests we had before.

Cpt_insano_2k1

cmdrworf wrote: »

Yes, Surveys can harvest personal information, but the fact is, if you dont do they, there is no harm. You don't like it? Don't do it. If you like it do it. I just don't see the fuss. This is such commonplace in mobile apps now I don't see the extreme issue with it that some people have. But as I said, I'll withhold final judgement until we hear more (or it disappears which would confirm many peoples thoughts on it). Either way, I hope it resolves soon and things get back to normal. This is very reminiscent of the iampicard protests we had before.

Thats the beauty of it. You dont need to “see the fuss”. You are free to develop your own opinion and act accordingly. No one is sitting here forcing you to be upset about it.

Drago Musevni

I only wish you had added to the "closed until further notice" text something along the lines of:

"please open a ticket with support and ask that the offer wall be removed so that the big book can be brought back".

If support gets flooded with tickets, maybe one of the higher-ups will finally notice.

cmdrworf

Cpt_insano_2k1 wrote: »

cmdrworf wrote: »

Yes, Surveys can harvest personal information, but the fact is, if you dont do they, there is no harm. You don't like it? Don't do it. If you like it do it. I just don't see the fuss. This is such commonplace in mobile apps now I don't see the extreme issue with it that some people have. But as I said, I'll withhold final judgement until we hear more (or it disappears which would confirm many peoples thoughts on it). Either way, I hope it resolves soon and things get back to normal. This is very reminiscent of the iampicard protests we had before.

Thats the beauty of it. You dont need to “see the fuss”. You are free to develop your own opinion and act accordingly. No one is sitting here forcing you to be upset about it.

For me its not what TP is doing that making me upset, its actually the community. I almost quit over how the community was during the iampicard fiasco (I was not a user) and I'm hoping I don't get that way over this and want to walk away from the community as this is what I like about this game and why I want to help it.

(HGH)Apollo

Money is short for many people these days. How does removing a free source of dilithium for players short on funds help them? Why should TP remove something many games have? Why would you assume your information was not being collected and sold before the offer wall or that without the offer wall it would not continue to be collected? Any company selling ads has to have information on how many players there are to sell the ads to the companies. Every game is collecting information to some extent on the players. How does removing your community tools have any effect on anyone but the community?

Cpt_insano_2k1

(HGH)Apollo wrote: »

Money is short for many people these days. How does removing a free source of dilithium for players short on funds help them? Why should TP remove something many games have? Why would you assume your information was not being collected and sold before the offer wall or that without the offer wall it would not continue to be collected? Any company selling ads has to have information on how many players there are to sell the ads to the companies. Every game is collecting information to some extent on the players. How does removing your community tools have any effect on anyone but the community?

1. Its not a free dilithium source in most cases. And for the times that it actually DOES payout dilithium, people who know about the mailbox exploit can potentially amass unlimited dilithium. Do you think that might be damaging to the game/community?

2. Maybe data privacy was being infringed upon to an equivalent extent prior to the offer wall. Maybe its worse now. Either way, people are upset about this and want their data kept private. The offer wall may have simply been the catalyst for raising everyones awareness.

3. The community tools, while a resource for the players were also an indirect medium that increased player engagement through a multitude of ways. This cost tp nothing, but almost assuredly increased/maintained revenue streams. The community members who created and manage these tools are not happy about the offer wall and will not freely provide their time/money/energy to manage a resource for a game that is operated by people who are violating their trust/privacy. In the end, tp will suffer with the continued loss of these resources more than the community will, as tp is making great strides at destroying the player community.

(IPA) Glise

The Big Book is the authors’ resource. They built it, they can do what they want with it. They are not obligated to share it with anyone, the fact that they did was a curtesy on their part. Make your own if you care that much. I support them and while it won’t be as easy or convenient, will go back to making decisions on crew the way I did before I knew the Big Book existed.

Cuttysark

Data1001 wrote: »

Captain Idol, it's certainly your right to do so, but know that by suspending/ending these resources, you are indeed punishing the community, to borrow a phrase from cmdrworf. I guarantee you that TP will not care one iota about the resources being shut down. I, and many other players, however, will definitely miss them.

Sorta like kicking fellow players in the groin so as to poke TP in the ribs. The logic escapes me.

But what do I know ...

SkittishSloth

One question: are these being removed (or made private or whatever), or just not being updated?

Captain Idol

SkittishSloth wrote: »

One question: are these being removed (or made private or whatever), or just not being updated?

Both

[ISA] Big McLargeHuge

I will add also that, on top of any philosophical reasons for it, for me, the enthusiasm to continue is currently not there. This whole situation doesn't anger me exactly as much as it just really bums me out. The amount of self-motivation required to keep cranking out content week in and week out is pretty high even when things are going well. Simply put, for a labor of love, the love is necessary.

That probably sounds more melodramatic than I intend it to be. Long story short, I don't want to put out half-hearted content, and I don't think you want to read it.

~peregrine~

Cuttysark wrote: »

Data1001 wrote: »

Captain Idol, it's certainly your right to do so, but know that by suspending/ending these resources, you are indeed punishing the community, to borrow a phrase from cmdrworf. I guarantee you that TP will not care one iota about the resources being shut down. I, and many other players, however, will definitely miss them.

Sorta like kicking fellow players in the groin so as to poke TP in the ribs. The logic escapes me.

But what do I know ...

TP are at risk of losing their long-term players who give a damn about this stuff, including me. That’s what you need to know. 🖖

[QH] Oxmyx

I have only used the wiki on occasion. To me when someone takes the time away from their lives and/or uses money to create something useful for a game, and then unselfishly chooses to share it with others, that creator also can remove that feature or limit its use if he or she feels they no longer wish to be attached to the game. The rest of us are simply “renters”, the house belongs to whoever built it. I appreciate the past efforts and simply say thank you to the creators. If in the future they choose to share again then we should consider that kindness for what it is. If someone wishes to remove their efforts or name from something they can no longer support that is their choice alone. Doesn’t have to just be a game. For the creators of these gifts, thank you and I understand. LLAP

~peregrine~

For the record, I maintain a spreadsheet. It gets the data from Shan’s posts in Starfleet Communications, as well as from the elephant in the room:

https://stt.wiki/wiki/Main_Page
🖖

eXo | SilverRose (retired)

(IPA) Glise wrote: »

Make your own if you care that much.

Actually, I (and @eXo | RodenberryPie) did make our own for use in eXo and with our bot. We're working on making a version that's more friendly to share in a non-bot format for folks to use if they choose in the absence of the Big Book. Our opinions differ on many cards from the BB, and our language is also a bit more... uh... colorful at times. But I'll share it when it's done. It needed to be done anyway.

eXo | RodenberryPie

While others fall back into uncertainty, I shall be a guiding light in these dark times.