What info do people think is going to be taken and sold? You can use an email just for the game and use prepaid cards to purchase then TP does not really have any more information than any other site provided you ignore the surveys. Star Trek Timelines is not like Facebook which has all of your personal photos, information, posts, preferences and is selling them to Russian intelligence, spy software companies and every other unscrupulous agency that will pay them money. TP has even said they have set a default of not sharing your info which Facebook refused to do with Cambridge Analytica.
TP/WRG may not be collecting, storing or selling our data and that's not the big issue that we're protesting. We're protesting the new collaboration between TP/WRG and ironSource with the inclusion of ironSources SDK in STT. We want to know when the ironSource SDK starts collecting our info: 1) when the game loads, 2) when we open the Offer Wall but don't do any offers or 3) only after we start an offer. We also want to know what info is collected by ironSource since they openly brag that they can and do collect end user (that's your's and mine) info even when privacy settings are set to deny them access to info.
Yes Ironsource has a website where they talk a big game to get companies to work with them. What information do you have on the game that you are afraid is going to be taken and sold? Tilting Point has access to a very limited amount of information from the players. Much less than most games and companies. I fail to see the harm if a backup email is sold to advertisers. Heck, Equifax, multiple banks, and other businesses already had most people’s information and gave it to the world for free when they improperly secured it and allowed it to be hacked. What info do you think Tilting Point has that is not known from dozens of other things you do on the internet like google, amazon, Facebook, and other assorted businesses that required much more personal information than Tilting Point? If you are still worried then ignore the offer wall. Ignore the surveys. Change your game email to one you don’t use much. Use a prepaid card. Unless you can prove somehow Ironsource is going to take other information from you besides the limited info in the game which you can take precautions against I see no damages or cause for alarm.
Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that ignoring the wall means ironSource doesn’t have access to your data. But this has NOT been verified. You’re also making the assumption that the data they can collect is limited to the game. This has also NOT been verified. ironSource deals in information. I doubt they care one way or another how many chrons we all have stashed. So what information DO they care about? Your guess is as good as mine. There’s an infinite number of reasons that any given player may not want to share their data with ironSource. They’re under no obligation to justify those reasons to you, TP, or ironSource. That’s what PRIVACY means.
I have used offer walls in other games and have used this offer wall in this game and not had any problems. You accuse me of making assumptions without proof then make accusations without proof. What proof do you have that Ironsource can get your information if you don’t use the offer wall? What proof do you have that they can get into your device outside of the game? I understand people being concerned about privacy issues but where does it end? Is your Wi-FI safe? Is your internet company? Is being online at all safe? You seem to have written yourself into a corner where you will only feel safe if TP can prove a negative or abandons a project they put money into and end a revenue stream. Neither seems possible or likely. Even if TP was somehow able to prove that Ironsource was not taking your info I am not sure that would satisfy you. Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.
Let's put it this way: how safe would you feel the info on your phone was if you left it on the table at a crowded bar or nightclub (without any friends or family watching to make sure it was safe and secure) and walked away to go to the restroom? That's our point. IronSource brags about how they can get info from end user's devices, not just how many chrons we have or the one email address we used in-game but any info on the device that they want.
[DCC] bebe
Privileged to be Admiral of the Great Fleet
Dilithium Causes Cancer, maxed Starbase level 134
Featuring photonic flee free holodecks and
All you can drink Neelix's Even Better Than Coffee Substitute!
Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.
There are two issues. One is with TP and how they conduct business. That statement was wholly dissatisfying in that respect. "We had to change TOS so we could enter this business relationship and didn't tell you until we got caught having done something previous TOS didn't allow" is a hell of a mea culpa. Even if you're happy with ironSource doing their thing, that's still an egregious violation of trust on TP's part. For me, that's the greater issue here, though it's about a 55/45 split.
In the section "How We Use the Information We Collect" under the heading "The GDPR Angle" (a rather passive-aggressive way of scoffing at regulations) ironSource's Privacy Policy directs us to complain to TP, not them, so that's what we've been doing:
We act as a processor – When we process Ad Network Information, Mediation Information and Advertiser Information on behalf of app developers, we act as their processors. For any request to exercise your individual rights related to such processing (including the rights of access, rectification, erasure, portability, and the right to restriction and/or object to processing), you should contact the relevant app developer.
Under the section of "How to Control Your Personal Information", there are directions for Android and iOS to turn off personalization settings. Easy peasy and reasonable. Fine. But it continues:
Scope of the opt-out – Note that if you reset your advertising ID through your device’s platform settings, you should follow the steps above to reset your opt-out choice. In addition, opting out may not stop data from being collected from your device or transferred for other, non-personalized advertising purposes such as optimization, reporting, frequency capping, internal operations, and fraud prevention. If you become aware of any third party that received your Ad Network Information from us, and that does not respect your choices, please let us know by contacting us at: dpo@ironsrc.com.
It doesn't necessarily end when you stop allowing them to collect data. Under "Maximum Information Retention Period":
We will retain your Ad Network Information, Mediation Information, and Advertiser Information for the longer of: (i) a period of up to 2 years from the date such information is first stored in our systems; or (ii) a period of 3 months from the last appearance of your Advertising ID in our systems.
It would be early October before any Timelines player's information was removed from their system, and that's if they immediately stopped doing anything that made their Advertising ID appear in their systems. But the shadiest sentence in the entire website that I could find is this under the heading "Children":
ironSource does not knowingly collect or maintain personal information collected online from children under the age of 13, except to the extent that the U.S. Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act permits us to collect and maintain such information without parental consent.
Straight up saying that even knowing that a child is under 13 they'll still collect as much of their information as they can without parental consent says everything I need to know about the ethics of their business.
[DCC] bebe
Privileged to be Admiral of the Great Fleet
Dilithium Causes Cancer, maxed Starbase level 134
Featuring photonic flee free holodecks and
All you can drink Neelix's Even Better Than Coffee Substitute!
What info do people think is going to be taken and sold? You can use an email just for the game and use prepaid cards to purchase then TP does not really have any more information than any other site provided you ignore the surveys. Star Trek Timelines is not like Facebook which has all of your personal photos, information, posts, preferences and is selling them to Russian intelligence, spy software companies and every other unscrupulous agency that will pay them money. TP has even said they have set a default of not sharing your info which Facebook refused to do with Cambridge Analytica.
TP/WRG may not be collecting, storing or selling our data and that's not the big issue that we're protesting. We're protesting the new collaboration between TP/WRG and ironSource with the inclusion of ironSources SDK in STT. We want to know when the ironSource SDK starts collecting our info: 1) when the game loads, 2) when we open the Offer Wall but don't do any offers or 3) only after we start an offer. We also want to know what info is collected by ironSource since they openly brag that they can and do collect end user (that's your's and mine) info even when privacy settings are set to deny them access to info.
Yes Ironsource has a website where they talk a big game to get companies to work with them. What information do you have on the game that you are afraid is going to be taken and sold? Tilting Point has access to a very limited amount of information from the players. Much less than most games and companies. I fail to see the harm if a backup email is sold to advertisers. Heck, Equifax, multiple banks, and other businesses already had most people’s information and gave it to the world for free when they improperly secured it and allowed it to be hacked. What info do you think Tilting Point has that is not known from dozens of other things you do on the internet like google, amazon, Facebook, and other assorted businesses that required much more personal information than Tilting Point? If you are still worried then ignore the offer wall. Ignore the surveys. Change your game email to one you don’t use much. Use a prepaid card. Unless you can prove somehow Ironsource is going to take other information from you besides the limited info in the game which you can take precautions against I see no damages or cause for alarm.
Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that ignoring the wall means ironSource doesn’t have access to your data. But this has NOT been verified. You’re also making the assumption that the data they can collect is limited to the game. This has also NOT been verified. ironSource deals in information. I doubt they care one way or another how many chrons we all have stashed. So what information DO they care about? Your guess is as good as mine. There’s an infinite number of reasons that any given player may not want to share their data with ironSource. They’re under no obligation to justify those reasons to you, TP, or ironSource. That’s what PRIVACY means.
I have used offer walls in other games and have used this offer wall in this game and not had any problems. You accuse me of making assumptions without proof then make accusations without proof. What proof do you have that Ironsource can get your information if you don’t use the offer wall? What proof do you have that they can get into your device outside of the game? I understand people being concerned about privacy issues but where does it end? Is your Wi-FI safe? Is your internet company? Is being online at all safe? You seem to have written yourself into a corner where you will only feel safe if TP can prove a negative or abandons a project they put money into and end a revenue stream. Neither seems possible or likely. Even if TP was somehow able to prove that Ironsource was not taking your info I am not sure that would satisfy you. Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.
This attitude that there is no data privacy concern to be had here because there are possible privacy leaks anywhere else on the Internet is, well, disgusting. It’s like saying someone whose home is burglarized should never worry about it ever happening again, to the point where they should stack some valuables on their front porch and hang a sign saying “free to good home” and hope nothing happens.
TP gave us half an answer - what we got was helpful, appreciated, and believed...now we need the final piece of the puzzle. If it’s good news, great! We can put this behind us and move on. If it’s bad news, well, at least we’ll know.
What info do people think is going to be taken and sold? If you are on iOS or Android you can just use an email just for the game and use prepaid cards to purchase then TP does not really have any more information than any other site provided you ignore the surveys. Star Trek Timelines is not like Facebook which has all of your personal photos, information, posts, preferences and is selling them to Russian intelligence, spy software companies and every other unscrupulous agency that will pay them money. TP has even said they have set a default of not sharing your info which Facebook refused to do with Cambridge Analytica. Is the complaint from people on other platforms than iOS and Android?
On top of what @Travis S McClain said, there is plenty fo data to mine.
Let's start off with a shiny new Android phone. Shiny new number, shiny new email address. New to the game, VIP0.
There's nothing there to mine really.
Give it a week, and Google has your browsing history for that week, where you've been, some contact information. And that accretes as time passes.
Buy something through the game, and now there's more data, including a card number and address, which then allows Google to go acquire other data from other third parties using that card and address as a foreign key, so that's pretty much anything you've used that card or that address for because companies love buying and selling data, and there's probably a lot of stuff in the public domain too, that can all be collated. So if you've 50 email addresses, several of them are now are stored under your unique id as well.
Congratulations, you've now got a creepy profile, because that's what SV decided to do with the internet.
Along comes a third party, let's call them FerricOrigin, and they'd like some of that data to sell on. Only they don't want to buy all of it, just off people who play that game, so they need something. Either an email address or a Google identifier will do, although really there's now that much data on your profile that cat can get skinned a hundred ways.
Now the game says "we don't share personal data", FerricOrigin's SDK says it gets it anyway.
So, question is, which is it?
Add to this we live in a world where companies say we don't sell your data, and then they do just that but call it something other than selling, because legalese.
Add to this the game changed the TOS without bothering to mention it for a while.
And that's where we are. And that's why people are questioning/worried/annoyed, and trust is at a premium.
One more thought I just had: Data breaches seem inevitable for a company whose entire business model is mining for data as aggressively as they brag about doing. ironSource does not engender much confidence in any commitment to keeping whatever data they may mine from my phone safe and sound. I might feel more comfortable with it if their website at least sounded like Season 3 Christopher Moltisanti instead of Season 1 Christopher Moltisanti.
One more thought I just had: Data breaches seem inevitable for a company whose entire business model is mining for data as aggressively as they brag about doing. ironSource does not engender much confidence in any commitment to keeping whatever data they may mine from my phone safe and sound.
This is actually my main concern at this point.
The rest is mainly a matter of principles and I have a hard time wrapping my mind around some of the comments that I've read on this issue here and elsewhere.
Saying that you just have to use a VPN, a throwaway phone, an Android simulator, a burner email address, Blokada, a prepaid card that you don't use for anything else and make sure not to ever insert correct information anywhere on the internet, otherwise you're stupid and you deserve the consequences, just moves the responsibility from the company to the user.
My default mindset is that we live in a society that has rules and regulations and that I can expect the people and companies I interact with to follow those rules and to be held responsible if they don't. I know that it doesn't always work that way and that being careful is always a good idea, but that doesn't change the fact that if IronSource does something that breaks EU regulations or if they generally have shady practices and they can get away with it, then I will at the very least not support them, which in this case would probably mean that I'll have to uninstall the app.
"This is the internet", "corporations are bad", "Facebook does the same" has no relevance. Those are not laws of nature. We live in a society that is made of people and what is or isn't acceptable depends on what the majority of people consider acceptable or not.
That being said, there is still no clear answer to the "what does IronSource collect through its SDK?" question and at this point I assume that there won't be one, because TP probably doesn't know either and IronSource couldn't care less.
Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):
1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.
Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.
Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):
1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.
Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):
1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.
Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
Yes, you have made that clear. And it has been brought to your attention that at least one player and community contributor has indeed quit the game over this, and that many others are currently in a limbo awaiting final clarifications for these concerns.
Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):
1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.
Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
Yes, you have made that clear. And it has been brought to your attention that at least one player and community contributor has indeed quit the game over this, and that many others are currently in a limbo awaiting final clarifications for these concerns.
And I have a lot of respect for that one player and community contributor. And yes, that has been brought to my attention, but I do not see why that means I need to stay silent forever when others are so comfortable restating positions about how serious this is that have been brought to our attention. I am not trying to confront you here, I just think that if we are truly in a holding pattern we should all be held to the same standard; if you get to keep repeating yourself, it would be nice if you extended other people the same courtesy.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
Wow. You can't understand why people who have been playing for years, may have invested time, money and effort, may have become part of a community, would rather kick up a stink over wanting clarity on a change that may lead to potential data theft, than sling their hook?
Let us know how the Voight-Kampff test results come out.
Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):
1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.
Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
At this point this whole conversation is just an ongoing back and forward between people who dismiss the concerns and people who reiterate them and try to explain what they are about.
If we received clear and comprehensive information on what is actually happening, then the discussion would probably die out, but until then it's mostly just assumptions against assumptions. And I wouldn't expect people to quit because they're worried about something that might turn out to not be an issue at all.
However, given how long this is taking, my guess is that we will never really get that information.
Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):
1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.
Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
Yes, you have made that clear. And it has been brought to your attention that at least one player and community contributor has indeed quit the game over this, and that many others are currently in a limbo awaiting final clarifications for these concerns.
And I have a lot of respect for that one player and community contributor. And yes, that has been brought to my attention, but I do not see why that means I need to stay silent forever when others are so comfortable restating positions about how serious this is that have been brought to our attention. I am not trying to confront you here, I just think that if we are truly in a holding pattern we should all be held to the same standard; if you get to keep repeating yourself, it would be nice if you extended other people the same courtesy.
We keep having to restate positions because there are people who keep trying to tell us that there is nothing to see here, no problems to be had, and that we’re dumb, overly worrisome, or deserve whatever happens regardless....people wallowing in a sad mixture of ignorance, self-righteousness, and contrarianism that needs to be confronted.
Clearly I am in a seperate minority, and thank you friend @Dirk Gunderson for keeping it civil, but what I am trying to say is that "the building is on fire" folks have done a great job of convincing us that the building is on fire while standing inside the building, I just do not understand why they do not exit the building if it is as unsafe as they say. I also do not understand the threat I pose, I am not questioning the validity of these arguments, if anything I am supporting them by questioning people for continuing to do something they have reported as being dangerous.
This is my last post in this thread. I have been hurt deeply by this issue, not the wall itself but the damage this has done to the community, and I came in here to express my hurt. I want to thank Dirk again for understanding that and taking my words for what they were and giving me a straight answer and not trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning.
Y'all acting like DB never leaked everyone's email addresses before (thanks for the Mirror Spock!) and the backlash wasn't this intense, lasting, and severe.
Maybe if we keep clamoring enough, DBTPWRG will give us all a free UPS Archer.
This is my last post in this thread. I have been hurt deeply by this issue, not the wall itself but the damage this has done to the community, and I came in here to express my hurt. I want to thank Dirk again for understanding that and taking my words for what they were and giving me a straight answer and not trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning.
I was not "trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning", I was surprised at a remarkable lack of empathy.
There are very few posters in here I hold in thoroughly low regard, and you're not one of them.
Clearly I am in a seperate minority, and thank you friend @Dirk Gunderson for keeping it civil, but what I am trying to say is that "the building is on fire" folks have done a great job of convincing us that the building is on fire while standing inside the building, I just do not understand why they do not exit the building if it is as unsafe as they say. I also do not understand the threat I pose, I am not questioning the validity of these arguments, if anything I am supporting them by questioning people for continuing to do something they have reported as being dangerous.
This is my last post in this thread. I have been hurt deeply by this issue, not the wall itself but the damage this has done to the community, and I came in here to express my hurt. I want to thank Dirk again for understanding that and taking my words for what they were and giving me a straight answer and not trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning.
This is just my personal position on this matter and I can't speak for others, but from what I understood from Shan's first statement, nothing has changed since the offer wall was implemented, but IronSource has been around since the ad warps were added. If that's true, then whatever has been happening has been happening for quite a while and a few days more won't make a difference. If that "whatever" is nothing (and I hope it is, because I have absolutely no expertise in this area and I'm just reading the explanations of possible concerns given by other players, sometimes in a rather cryptic way and sometimes with lots of detail, links to useful articles and an actual effort to make these things understandable), so if it's nothing I will be more than happy to know that and move back to normal. Otherwise I'll have to decide how many things I'm willing to ignore and what risks and measures to avoid them I'm willing to take just to keep playing this game.
Other players were mainly concerned about the content of the offer wall and wanted it removed (some of them already left, as far as I know). Still others uninstalled the app because of the privacy concerns and are now playing on their computer or they downgraded the app to an earlier version that doesn't have the wall.
What you wrote makes it sound like people are trying to divide the community with made up claims of non existent threats. I didn't get that impression. I think they were just trying to get people's attention to these concerns. And then the conversation just kept going on because in the end no one has all the facts and we all just ended up forming one opinion or the other, that we now keep repeating.
What info do people think is going to be taken and sold? You can use an email just for the game and use prepaid cards to purchase then TP does not really have any more information than any other site provided you ignore the surveys. Star Trek Timelines is not like Facebook which has all of your personal photos, information, posts, preferences and is selling them to Russian intelligence, spy software companies and every other unscrupulous agency that will pay them money. TP has even said they have set a default of not sharing your info which Facebook refused to do with Cambridge Analytica.
TP/WRG may not be collecting, storing or selling our data and that's not the big issue that we're protesting. We're protesting the new collaboration between TP/WRG and ironSource with the inclusion of ironSources SDK in STT. We want to know when the ironSource SDK starts collecting our info: 1) when the game loads, 2) when we open the Offer Wall but don't do any offers or 3) only after we start an offer. We also want to know what info is collected by ironSource since they openly brag that they can and do collect end user (that's your's and mine) info even when privacy settings are set to deny them access to info.
Yes Ironsource has a website where they talk a big game to get companies to work with them. What information do you have on the game that you are afraid is going to be taken and sold? Tilting Point has access to a very limited amount of information from the players. Much less than most games and companies. I fail to see the harm if a backup email is sold to advertisers. Heck, Equifax, multiple banks, and other businesses already had most people’s information and gave it to the world for free when they improperly secured it and allowed it to be hacked. What info do you think Tilting Point has that is not known from dozens of other things you do on the internet like google, amazon, Facebook, and other assorted businesses that required much more personal information than Tilting Point? If you are still worried then ignore the offer wall. Ignore the surveys. Change your game email to one you don’t use much. Use a prepaid card. Unless you can prove somehow Ironsource is going to take other information from you besides the limited info in the game which you can take precautions against I see no damages or cause for alarm.
Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that ignoring the wall means ironSource doesn’t have access to your data. But this has NOT been verified. You’re also making the assumption that the data they can collect is limited to the game. This has also NOT been verified. ironSource deals in information. I doubt they care one way or another how many chrons we all have stashed. So what information DO they care about? Your guess is as good as mine. There’s an infinite number of reasons that any given player may not want to share their data with ironSource. They’re under no obligation to justify those reasons to you, TP, or ironSource. That’s what PRIVACY means.
I have used offer walls in other games and have used this offer wall in this game and not had any problems. You accuse me of making assumptions without proof then make accusations without proof. What proof do you have that Ironsource can get your information if you don’t use the offer wall? What proof do you have that they can get into your device outside of the game? I understand people being concerned about privacy issues but where does it end? Is your Wi-FI safe? Is your internet company? Is being online at all safe? You seem to have written yourself into a corner where you will only feel safe if TP can prove a negative or abandons a project they put money into and end a revenue stream. Neither seems possible or likely. Even if TP was somehow able to prove that Ironsource was not taking your info I am not sure that would satisfy you. Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.
Dude, you ARE making an assumption that by not interacting with the offer wall, ironSource is NOT collecting our data. I’m not saying that is definitely not the case. I’m saying that TP hasn’t confirmed that that ISN’T the case. Despite the fact that the question has been asked REPEATEDLY. If you want to assume that that’s the way it is, fine. But don’t expect the rest of us to to assume the same, when ironSource’s own website says something different and TP refuses to answer the question.
To quote Carl Sagan, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” You are making the claims, provide the evidence.
I have not had any problem with this offer wall or others. I am following Occam’s razor. You are the one claiming that Ironsource could get info outside of the offer wall from everyone even those not using the offer wall and that they could also get info from outside of the game. The onus is on you to provide the evidence for these claims. Just as if I claimed ghosts were real and you said they were not the onus would be on me to prove it. The evidence burden is on the person making the claims. I could not say ghosts were real, provide no evidence, and say that our two opinions were equal. You would rightly say there is no evidence of ghosts and until there is extraordinary evidence to support my extraordinary claim it cannot be said ghosts are real.
Clearly I am in a seperate minority, and thank you friend Dirk Gunderson for keeping it civil, but what I am trying to say is that "the building is on fire" folks have done a great job of convincing us that the building is on fire while standing inside the building, I just do not understand why they do not exit the building if it is as unsafe as they say. I also do not understand the threat I pose, I am not questioning the validity of these arguments, if anything I am supporting them by questioning people for continuing to do something they have reported as being dangerous.
This is my last post in this thread. I have been hurt deeply by this issue, not the wall itself but the damage this has done to the community, and I came in here to express my hurt. I want to thank Dirk again for understanding that and taking my words for what they were and giving me a straight answer and not trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning.
To make use of the analogy, we don’t really know if the fire is a greasy pan that can be put out with a cover or a fistful of baking soda or if the building is about to come down around our heads. We’re only seeing the smoke right now and don’t know how bad it really is.
What info do people think is going to be taken and sold? You can use an email just for the game and use prepaid cards to purchase then TP does not really have any more information than any other site provided you ignore the surveys. Star Trek Timelines is not like Facebook which has all of your personal photos, information, posts, preferences and is selling them to Russian intelligence, spy software companies and every other unscrupulous agency that will pay them money. TP has even said they have set a default of not sharing your info which Facebook refused to do with Cambridge Analytica.
TP/WRG may not be collecting, storing or selling our data and that's not the big issue that we're protesting. We're protesting the new collaboration between TP/WRG and ironSource with the inclusion of ironSources SDK in STT. We want to know when the ironSource SDK starts collecting our info: 1) when the game loads, 2) when we open the Offer Wall but don't do any offers or 3) only after we start an offer. We also want to know what info is collected by ironSource since they openly brag that they can and do collect end user (that's your's and mine) info even when privacy settings are set to deny them access to info.
Yes Ironsource has a website where they talk a big game to get companies to work with them. What information do you have on the game that you are afraid is going to be taken and sold? Tilting Point has access to a very limited amount of information from the players. Much less than most games and companies. I fail to see the harm if a backup email is sold to advertisers. Heck, Equifax, multiple banks, and other businesses already had most people’s information and gave it to the world for free when they improperly secured it and allowed it to be hacked. What info do you think Tilting Point has that is not known from dozens of other things you do on the internet like google, amazon, Facebook, and other assorted businesses that required much more personal information than Tilting Point? If you are still worried then ignore the offer wall. Ignore the surveys. Change your game email to one you don’t use much. Use a prepaid card. Unless you can prove somehow Ironsource is going to take other information from you besides the limited info in the game which you can take precautions against I see no damages or cause for alarm.
Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that ignoring the wall means ironSource doesn’t have access to your data. But this has NOT been verified. You’re also making the assumption that the data they can collect is limited to the game. This has also NOT been verified. ironSource deals in information. I doubt they care one way or another how many chrons we all have stashed. So what information DO they care about? Your guess is as good as mine. There’s an infinite number of reasons that any given player may not want to share their data with ironSource. They’re under no obligation to justify those reasons to you, TP, or ironSource. That’s what PRIVACY means.
I have used offer walls in other games and have used this offer wall in this game and not had any problems. You accuse me of making assumptions without proof then make accusations without proof. What proof do you have that Ironsource can get your information if you don’t use the offer wall? What proof do you have that they can get into your device outside of the game? I understand people being concerned about privacy issues but where does it end? Is your Wi-FI safe? Is your internet company? Is being online at all safe? You seem to have written yourself into a corner where you will only feel safe if TP can prove a negative or abandons a project they put money into and end a revenue stream. Neither seems possible or likely. Even if TP was somehow able to prove that Ironsource was not taking your info I am not sure that would satisfy you. Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.
Dude, you ARE making an assumption that by not interacting with the offer wall, ironSource is NOT collecting our data. I’m not saying that is definitely not the case. I’m saying that TP hasn’t confirmed that that ISN’T the case. Despite the fact that the question has been asked REPEATEDLY. If you want to assume that that’s the way it is, fine. But don’t expect the rest of us to to assume the same, when ironSource’s own website says something different and TP refuses to answer the question.
To quote Carl Sagan, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” You are making the claims, provide the evidence.
I have not had any problem with this offer wall or others. I am following Occam’s razor. You are the one claiming that Ironsource could get info outside of the offer wall from everyone even those not using the offer wall and that they could also get info from outside of the game. The onus is on you to provide the evidence for these claims. Just as if I claimed ghosts were real and you said they were not the onus would be on me to prove it. The evidence burden is on the person making the claims. I could not say ghosts were real, provide no evidence, and say that our two opinions were equal. You would rightly say there is no evidence of ghosts and until there is extraordinary evidence to support my extraordinary claim it cannot be said ghosts are real.
Apparently IronSource themselves claim that they can on their website. Someone posted quotes from it.
Here are some of the domains that the game tries to connect to when starting up. Again, I don't know for a fact if this is a recent change or not; I can't downgrade the game version on iOS to do a side-by-side, but if someone is using Android and an ad blocker we'd all appreciate a comparison to see what was there before and if something was added recently. I don't know what information would be sent to these addresses, I'm only looking at DNS queries / connection attempts (you'd need a MITM proxy to look at the actual data being sent if someone has the time to dig into that).
So again, the scenario is just starting the application, not interacting with the "free dilithium" button at all: supersonicads.com , adcolony.com , applovin.com , swrve.com , hyprmx.com , app-measurement.com , appsflyer.com , unityads.unity3d.com, applvn.com , adtilt.com , doubleclick.net , ssacdn.com , crashlytics.com.
Some of these are not entirely shady (for example crashlytics.com can also be used for ethical / anonymized telemetry which can help the developers improve the game), most are.
It's not evidence, but I think those are some of the things that made people suspicious.
The problem is that TP's statement only addressed some of the players' concerns, leaving so many unknowns when it comes to privacy risks associated with the offer wall and/or their partner (IronSource). Since TP was selective in addressing our concerns, there's little wonder that we're left speculating whether their understanding and/or communication was poor, or if a legal loophole remains that IronSource could be exploiting.
It would be great if TP could address the remaining concerns, rather than leaving us to turn on ourselves in a pointless exercise in futility.
Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.
There are two issues. One is with TP and how they conduct business. That statement was wholly dissatisfying in that respect. "We had to change TOS so we could enter this business relationship and didn't tell you until we got caught having done something previous TOS didn't allow" is a hell of a mea culpa. Even if you're happy with ironSource doing their thing, that's still an egregious violation of trust on TP's part. For me, that's the greater issue here, though it's about a 55/45 split.
In the section "How We Use the Information We Collect" under the heading "The GDPR Angle" (a rather passive-aggressive way of scoffing at regulations) ironSource's Privacy Policy directs us to complain to TP, not them, so that's what we've been doing:
We act as a processor – When we process Ad Network Information, Mediation Information and Advertiser Information on behalf of app developers, we act as their processors. For any request to exercise your individual rights related to such processing (including the rights of access, rectification, erasure, portability, and the right to restriction and/or object to processing), you should contact the relevant app developer.
Under the section of "How to Control Your Personal Information", there are directions for Android and iOS to turn off personalization settings. Easy peasy and reasonable. Fine. But it continues:
Scope of the opt-out – Note that if you reset your advertising ID through your device’s platform settings, you should follow the steps above to reset your opt-out choice. In addition, opting out may not stop data from being collected from your device or transferred for other, non-personalized advertising purposes such as optimization, reporting, frequency capping, internal operations, and fraud prevention. If you become aware of any third party that received your Ad Network Information from us, and that does not respect your choices, please let us know by contacting us at: dpo@ironsrc.com.
It doesn't necessarily end when you stop allowing them to collect data. Under "Maximum Information Retention Period":
We will retain your Ad Network Information, Mediation Information, and Advertiser Information for the longer of: (i) a period of up to 2 years from the date such information is first stored in our systems; or (ii) a period of 3 months from the last appearance of your Advertising ID in our systems.
It would be early October before any Timelines player's information was removed from their system, and that's if they immediately stopped doing anything that made their Advertising ID appear in their systems. But the shadiest sentence in the entire website that I could find is this under the heading "Children":
ironSource does not knowingly collect or maintain personal information collected online from children under the age of 13, except to the extent that the U.S. Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act permits us to collect and maintain such information without parental consent.
Straight up saying that even knowing that a child is under 13 they'll still collect as much of their information as they can without parental consent says everything I need to know about the ethics of their business.
I get your frustration but I think you are putting nefarious intentions on things that are not nefarious. Tilting Point took over an existing game that continued to run. There is going to be some changeover issues and lags. Players asked about privacy and Tilting Point did a review of its Terms of Service and realized that they needed to be updated and clarified. That is why there was a lag in response because Tilting Point was trying to be open and honest.
Ironsource is using legalese necessitated by law but most of it is boiler plate stuff. They contract through Tilting Point so if players have issues they have to take it to Tilting Point. That is standard.
ironSource does not knowingly collect or maintain personal information collected online from children under the age of 13, except to the extent that the U.S. Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act permits us to collect and maintain such information without parental consent.
All this statement is saying is that they are complying with and following the law. There is nothing sinister about it. A child under the age of 13 can buy a movie ticket to a PG movie but not one that is PG-13. If a theater said “we do collect money from children under the age of 13 except to the extent that is permitted by law without parental consent” it would not be nefarious. You would not criticize them for taking money from children without parental consent.
I fully understand why this is happening and your reason to protest... i dislike the offer wall as much as the next captain but it’s certainly getting a bit annoying... oh let me just check- nope! hmm i wonder- guess i’ll keep wondering! so i guess what i’m trying to say is some players (new and old) including 3+ years players like myself rely on this *very* helpful tools and it’s a bit disappointing knowing that protesting TP is also hurting the community in some ways. i will survive but hope the book and other resources will be back up...someday 🖖🖖🖖
“What's a knockout like you doing in a computer-generated gin joint like this?”
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.
There are two issues. One is with TP and how they conduct business. That statement was wholly dissatisfying in that respect. "We had to change TOS so we could enter this business relationship and didn't tell you until we got caught having done something previous TOS didn't allow" is a hell of a mea culpa. Even if you're happy with ironSource doing their thing, that's still an egregious violation of trust on TP's part. For me, that's the greater issue here, though it's about a 55/45 split.
In the section "How We Use the Information We Collect" under the heading "The GDPR Angle" (a rather passive-aggressive way of scoffing at regulations) ironSource's Privacy Policy directs us to complain to TP, not them, so that's what we've been doing:
We act as a processor – When we process Ad Network Information, Mediation Information and Advertiser Information on behalf of app developers, we act as their processors. For any request to exercise your individual rights related to such processing (including the rights of access, rectification, erasure, portability, and the right to restriction and/or object to processing), you should contact the relevant app developer.
Under the section of "How to Control Your Personal Information", there are directions for Android and iOS to turn off personalization settings. Easy peasy and reasonable. Fine. But it continues:
Scope of the opt-out – Note that if you reset your advertising ID through your device’s platform settings, you should follow the steps above to reset your opt-out choice. In addition, opting out may not stop data from being collected from your device or transferred for other, non-personalized advertising purposes such as optimization, reporting, frequency capping, internal operations, and fraud prevention. If you become aware of any third party that received your Ad Network Information from us, and that does not respect your choices, please let us know by contacting us at: dpo@ironsrc.com.
It doesn't necessarily end when you stop allowing them to collect data. Under "Maximum Information Retention Period":
We will retain your Ad Network Information, Mediation Information, and Advertiser Information for the longer of: (i) a period of up to 2 years from the date such information is first stored in our systems; or (ii) a period of 3 months from the last appearance of your Advertising ID in our systems.
It would be early October before any Timelines player's information was removed from their system, and that's if they immediately stopped doing anything that made their Advertising ID appear in their systems. But the shadiest sentence in the entire website that I could find is this under the heading "Children":
ironSource does not knowingly collect or maintain personal information collected online from children under the age of 13, except to the extent that the U.S. Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act permits us to collect and maintain such information without parental consent.
Straight up saying that even knowing that a child is under 13 they'll still collect as much of their information as they can without parental consent says everything I need to know about the ethics of their business.
I get your frustration but I think you are putting nefarious intentions on things that are not nefarious. Tilting Point took over an existing game that continued to run. There is going to be some changeover issues and lags. Players asked about privacy and Tilting Point did a review of its Terms of Service and realized that they needed to be updated and clarified. That is why there was a lag in response because Tilting Point was trying to be open and honest.
(Spoiler'd above quoted text so this post isn't nineteen feet long.)
By not informing me of all this before launching The Wall, TP took the decision of whether to continue playing out of my hands. Even if it's mere incompetence rather than malice, my trust is still undermined.
ironSource does not knowingly collect or maintain personal information collected online from children under the age of 13, except to the extent that the U.S. Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act permits us to collect and maintain such information without parental consent.
All this statement is saying is that they are complying with and following the law. There is nothing sinister about it. A child under the age of 13 can buy a movie ticket to a PG movie but not one that is PG-13. If a theater said “we do collect money from children under the age of 13 except to the extent that is permitted by law without parental consent” it would not be nefarious. You would not criticize them for taking money from children without parental consent.
Oh, I absolutely would criticize anyone who says they will do what they can with a child even knowing they don't have parental consent. And to stick with movies, contrast ironSource's language with Cinemark's Terms & Conditions:
4.14 Must be At Least 13 Years Old to Use the Site and at Least 16 Years Old to be a Movie Fan and Movie Club Member: If you are at least thirteen (13) years old but not of legal age to enter agreements, you MUST have permission from your parent or guardian to use the Site and to become a member of either Movie Fan or Movie Club. Cinemark makes no active effort to collect personal information from individuals under the age of 13. You must ensure that content you provide on any website or social media platform in connection with attempting to earn the Cinemark Movie Rewards Program points is acceptable for viewing by users who might not be adults.
ironSource's "boiler plate" legalese is considerably more predatory than Cinemark's. Will Cinemark still collect a child's data? Surely. But they have at least gone to the trouble of making clear the child is not supposed to be giving it, whereas ironSource outright says they'll go after as much as they can even if they know they haven't been told it's okay.
Y'all acting like DB never leaked everyone's email addresses before (thanks for the Mirror Spock!) and the backlash wasn't this intense, lasting, and severe.
Ah, memories. I started playing just after that mass email was sent, so I wasn't included in it and didn't get a Spock. But I was in time to see the turmoil on the old forum, and I recall at least a few players quit because they felt that some pixels in the game was an insulting compensation for exposing their email addresses. I understood their anger, and it made me uncomfortable. But I'm always willing to give someone a chance to explain themselves and try to rectify things, so I didn't immediately quit. DB owned up to it, offered an explanation without making excuses, and severed their partnership with the email server so it couldn't happen again. I was mollified by that.
I'm still trying to give TP time to properly address this, as the statement we were given struck me as a placeholder. I can appreciate that this is more intricate than the email server partnership. It disappoints me greatly to hear a message from other players that instead of trying to give TP a chance to make this right that I should just leave. That feels extremely dismissive of me, and also unfair to TP for me to not let them do something that might rectify this.
Y'all acting like DB never leaked everyone's email addresses before (thanks for the Mirror Spock!) and the backlash wasn't this intense, lasting, and severe.
Ah, memories. I started playing just after that mass email was sent, so I wasn't included in it and didn't get a Spock. But I was in time to see the turmoil on the old forum, and I recall at least a few players quit because they felt that some pixels in the game was an insulting compensation for exposing their email addresses. I understood their anger, and it made me uncomfortable. But I'm always willing to give someone a chance to explain themselves and try to rectify things, so I didn't immediately quit. DB owned up to it, offered an explanation without making excuses, and severed their partnership with the email server so it couldn't happen again. I was mollified by that.
I'm still trying to give TP time to properly address this, as the statement we were given struck me as a placeholder. I can appreciate that this is more intricate than the email server partnership. It disappoints me greatly to hear a message from other players that instead of trying to give TP a chance to make this right that I should just leave. That feels extremely dismissive of me, and also unfair to TP for me to not let them do something that might rectify this.
+1. Thus, I abide. No premium campaign, though, until y’all get this straight.
I mean, really. This is just frakking sad now. Do better.
"In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
I for one am glad to see this debate continue. TP can end this debate at any time by coming forward with the information they've been asked for. If the conversation otherwise stops they will just continue on as if nothing happened. This is not acceptable.
As to not leaving, I guess I just don't want to. I want to stand my ground and fight. The only way to do that is to not spend money and to encourage each other, and try to get TP to change direction. Those that are happy with this direction should increase their spending and encourage each other too I guess. I just don't want to let TP off the hook.
Comments
Some of us in this community have problems controlling our impulses for various reasons.
Let's put it this way: how safe would you feel the info on your phone was if you left it on the table at a crowded bar or nightclub (without any friends or family watching to make sure it was safe and secure) and walked away to go to the restroom? That's our point. IronSource brags about how they can get info from end user's devices, not just how many chrons we have or the one email address we used in-game but any info on the device that they want.
Privileged to be Admiral of the Great Fleet
Dilithium Causes Cancer, maxed Starbase level 134
Featuring photonic flee free holodecks and
All you can drink Neelix's Even Better Than Coffee Substitute!
There are two issues. One is with TP and how they conduct business. That statement was wholly dissatisfying in that respect. "We had to change TOS so we could enter this business relationship and didn't tell you until we got caught having done something previous TOS didn't allow" is a hell of a mea culpa. Even if you're happy with ironSource doing their thing, that's still an egregious violation of trust on TP's part. For me, that's the greater issue here, though it's about a 55/45 split.
In the section "How We Use the Information We Collect" under the heading "The GDPR Angle" (a rather passive-aggressive way of scoffing at regulations) ironSource's Privacy Policy directs us to complain to TP, not them, so that's what we've been doing:
Under the section of "How to Control Your Personal Information", there are directions for Android and iOS to turn off personalization settings. Easy peasy and reasonable. Fine. But it continues:
It doesn't necessarily end when you stop allowing them to collect data. Under "Maximum Information Retention Period":
It would be early October before any Timelines player's information was removed from their system, and that's if they immediately stopped doing anything that made their Advertising ID appear in their systems. But the shadiest sentence in the entire website that I could find is this under the heading "Children":
Straight up saying that even knowing that a child is under 13 they'll still collect as much of their information as they can without parental consent says everything I need to know about the ethics of their business.
Privileged to be Admiral of the Great Fleet
Dilithium Causes Cancer, maxed Starbase level 134
Featuring photonic flee free holodecks and
All you can drink Neelix's Even Better Than Coffee Substitute!
This attitude that there is no data privacy concern to be had here because there are possible privacy leaks anywhere else on the Internet is, well, disgusting. It’s like saying someone whose home is burglarized should never worry about it ever happening again, to the point where they should stack some valuables on their front porch and hang a sign saying “free to good home” and hope nothing happens.
TP gave us half an answer - what we got was helpful, appreciated, and believed...now we need the final piece of the puzzle. If it’s good news, great! We can put this behind us and move on. If it’s bad news, well, at least we’ll know.
On top of what @Travis S McClain said, there is plenty fo data to mine.
Let's start off with a shiny new Android phone. Shiny new number, shiny new email address. New to the game, VIP0.
There's nothing there to mine really.
Give it a week, and Google has your browsing history for that week, where you've been, some contact information. And that accretes as time passes.
Buy something through the game, and now there's more data, including a card number and address, which then allows Google to go acquire other data from other third parties using that card and address as a foreign key, so that's pretty much anything you've used that card or that address for because companies love buying and selling data, and there's probably a lot of stuff in the public domain too, that can all be collated. So if you've 50 email addresses, several of them are now are stored under your unique id as well.
Congratulations, you've now got a creepy profile, because that's what SV decided to do with the internet.
Along comes a third party, let's call them FerricOrigin, and they'd like some of that data to sell on. Only they don't want to buy all of it, just off people who play that game, so they need something. Either an email address or a Google identifier will do, although really there's now that much data on your profile that cat can get skinned a hundred ways.
Now the game says "we don't share personal data", FerricOrigin's SDK says it gets it anyway.
So, question is, which is it?
Add to this we live in a world where companies say we don't sell your data, and then they do just that but call it something other than selling, because legalese.
Add to this the game changed the TOS without bothering to mention it for a while.
And that's where we are. And that's why people are questioning/worried/annoyed, and trust is at a premium.
This is actually my main concern at this point.
The rest is mainly a matter of principles and I have a hard time wrapping my mind around some of the comments that I've read on this issue here and elsewhere.
Saying that you just have to use a VPN, a throwaway phone, an Android simulator, a burner email address, Blokada, a prepaid card that you don't use for anything else and make sure not to ever insert correct information anywhere on the internet, otherwise you're stupid and you deserve the consequences, just moves the responsibility from the company to the user.
My default mindset is that we live in a society that has rules and regulations and that I can expect the people and companies I interact with to follow those rules and to be held responsible if they don't. I know that it doesn't always work that way and that being careful is always a good idea, but that doesn't change the fact that if IronSource does something that breaks EU regulations or if they generally have shady practices and they can get away with it, then I will at the very least not support them, which in this case would probably mean that I'll have to uninstall the app.
"This is the internet", "corporations are bad", "Facebook does the same" has no relevance. Those are not laws of nature. We live in a society that is made of people and what is or isn't acceptable depends on what the majority of people consider acceptable or not.
That being said, there is still no clear answer to the "what does IronSource collect through its SDK?" question and at this point I assume that there won't be one, because TP probably doesn't know either and IronSource couldn't care less.
1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.
Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
Yes, you have made that clear. And it has been brought to your attention that at least one player and community contributor has indeed quit the game over this, and that many others are currently in a limbo awaiting final clarifications for these concerns.
And I have a lot of respect for that one player and community contributor. And yes, that has been brought to my attention, but I do not see why that means I need to stay silent forever when others are so comfortable restating positions about how serious this is that have been brought to our attention. I am not trying to confront you here, I just think that if we are truly in a holding pattern we should all be held to the same standard; if you get to keep repeating yourself, it would be nice if you extended other people the same courtesy.
Wow. You can't understand why people who have been playing for years, may have invested time, money and effort, may have become part of a community, would rather kick up a stink over wanting clarity on a change that may lead to potential data theft, than sling their hook?
Let us know how the Voight-Kampff test results come out.
At this point this whole conversation is just an ongoing back and forward between people who dismiss the concerns and people who reiterate them and try to explain what they are about.
If we received clear and comprehensive information on what is actually happening, then the discussion would probably die out, but until then it's mostly just assumptions against assumptions. And I wouldn't expect people to quit because they're worried about something that might turn out to not be an issue at all.
However, given how long this is taking, my guess is that we will never really get that information.
We keep having to restate positions because there are people who keep trying to tell us that there is nothing to see here, no problems to be had, and that we’re dumb, overly worrisome, or deserve whatever happens regardless....people wallowing in a sad mixture of ignorance, self-righteousness, and contrarianism that needs to be confronted.
This is my last post in this thread. I have been hurt deeply by this issue, not the wall itself but the damage this has done to the community, and I came in here to express my hurt. I want to thank Dirk again for understanding that and taking my words for what they were and giving me a straight answer and not trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning.
Maybe if we keep clamoring enough, DBTPWRG will give us all a free UPS Archer.
Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire
Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!
I was not "trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning", I was surprised at a remarkable lack of empathy.
There are very few posters in here I hold in thoroughly low regard, and you're not one of them.
I really hope you're wrong, but my inner cynic is nodding in agreement.
The silence from the business is pretty damning, there's not even been a recognition from the feedback to the statement.
This is just my personal position on this matter and I can't speak for others, but from what I understood from Shan's first statement, nothing has changed since the offer wall was implemented, but IronSource has been around since the ad warps were added. If that's true, then whatever has been happening has been happening for quite a while and a few days more won't make a difference. If that "whatever" is nothing (and I hope it is, because I have absolutely no expertise in this area and I'm just reading the explanations of possible concerns given by other players, sometimes in a rather cryptic way and sometimes with lots of detail, links to useful articles and an actual effort to make these things understandable), so if it's nothing I will be more than happy to know that and move back to normal. Otherwise I'll have to decide how many things I'm willing to ignore and what risks and measures to avoid them I'm willing to take just to keep playing this game.
Other players were mainly concerned about the content of the offer wall and wanted it removed (some of them already left, as far as I know). Still others uninstalled the app because of the privacy concerns and are now playing on their computer or they downgraded the app to an earlier version that doesn't have the wall.
What you wrote makes it sound like people are trying to divide the community with made up claims of non existent threats. I didn't get that impression. I think they were just trying to get people's attention to these concerns. And then the conversation just kept going on because in the end no one has all the facts and we all just ended up forming one opinion or the other, that we now keep repeating.
To quote Carl Sagan, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” You are making the claims, provide the evidence.
I have not had any problem with this offer wall or others. I am following Occam’s razor. You are the one claiming that Ironsource could get info outside of the offer wall from everyone even those not using the offer wall and that they could also get info from outside of the game. The onus is on you to provide the evidence for these claims. Just as if I claimed ghosts were real and you said they were not the onus would be on me to prove it. The evidence burden is on the person making the claims. I could not say ghosts were real, provide no evidence, and say that our two opinions were equal. You would rightly say there is no evidence of ghosts and until there is extraordinary evidence to support my extraordinary claim it cannot be said ghosts are real.
To make use of the analogy, we don’t really know if the fire is a greasy pan that can be put out with a cover or a fistful of baking soda or if the building is about to come down around our heads. We’re only seeing the smoke right now and don’t know how bad it really is.
Apparently IronSource themselves claim that they can on their website. Someone posted quotes from it.
And then there's this:
It's not evidence, but I think those are some of the things that made people suspicious.
It would be great if TP could address the remaining concerns, rather than leaving us to turn on ourselves in a pointless exercise in futility.
I get your frustration but I think you are putting nefarious intentions on things that are not nefarious. Tilting Point took over an existing game that continued to run. There is going to be some changeover issues and lags. Players asked about privacy and Tilting Point did a review of its Terms of Service and realized that they needed to be updated and clarified. That is why there was a lag in response because Tilting Point was trying to be open and honest.
Ironsource is using legalese necessitated by law but most of it is boiler plate stuff. They contract through Tilting Point so if players have issues they have to take it to Tilting Point. That is standard.
All this statement is saying is that they are complying with and following the law. There is nothing sinister about it. A child under the age of 13 can buy a movie ticket to a PG movie but not one that is PG-13. If a theater said “we do collect money from children under the age of 13 except to the extent that is permitted by law without parental consent” it would not be nefarious. You would not criticize them for taking money from children without parental consent.
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
(Spoiler'd above quoted text so this post isn't nineteen feet long.)
By not informing me of all this before launching The Wall, TP took the decision of whether to continue playing out of my hands. Even if it's mere incompetence rather than malice, my trust is still undermined.
Oh, I absolutely would criticize anyone who says they will do what they can with a child even knowing they don't have parental consent. And to stick with movies, contrast ironSource's language with Cinemark's Terms & Conditions:
ironSource's "boiler plate" legalese is considerably more predatory than Cinemark's. Will Cinemark still collect a child's data? Surely. But they have at least gone to the trouble of making clear the child is not supposed to be giving it, whereas ironSource outright says they'll go after as much as they can even if they know they haven't been told it's okay.
Ah, memories. I started playing just after that mass email was sent, so I wasn't included in it and didn't get a Spock. But I was in time to see the turmoil on the old forum, and I recall at least a few players quit because they felt that some pixels in the game was an insulting compensation for exposing their email addresses. I understood their anger, and it made me uncomfortable. But I'm always willing to give someone a chance to explain themselves and try to rectify things, so I didn't immediately quit. DB owned up to it, offered an explanation without making excuses, and severed their partnership with the email server so it couldn't happen again. I was mollified by that.
I'm still trying to give TP time to properly address this, as the statement we were given struck me as a placeholder. I can appreciate that this is more intricate than the email server partnership. It disappoints me greatly to hear a message from other players that instead of trying to give TP a chance to make this right that I should just leave. That feels extremely dismissive of me, and also unfair to TP for me to not let them do something that might rectify this.
+1. Thus, I abide. No premium campaign, though, until y’all get this straight.
I mean, really. This is just frakking sad now. Do better.
As to not leaving, I guess I just don't want to. I want to stand my ground and fight. The only way to do that is to not spend money and to encourage each other, and try to get TP to change direction. Those that are happy with this direction should increase their spending and encourage each other too I guess. I just don't want to let TP off the hook.