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The Big Book Of Behold Advice WAS Shut Down In Protest (Now Back Up, See OP)

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  • Shan wrote: »
    but please make an effort to overcome this impulse.

    Some of us in this community have problems controlling our impulses for various reasons. :)

  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    One more thought I just had: Data breaches seem inevitable for a company whose entire business model is mining for data as aggressively as they brag about doing. ironSource does not engender much confidence in any commitment to keeping whatever data they may mine from my phone safe and sound. I might feel more comfortable with it if their website at least sounded like Season 3 Christopher Moltisanti instead of Season 1 Christopher Moltisanti.
  • Bylo BandBylo Band ✭✭✭✭✭
    Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):

    1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
    2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.

    Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.

    Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.
  • Bylo BandBylo Band ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Being anonymous on the internet is much harder than many people would believe. Using a fake e-mail address is not the end game, it is barely a speed bump for a data collector. You are using this game on a device that has a ton of your very own personal information stored, which can be and are cross connected in any number of ways. Even if you were able to use a device that is completely decoupled from your personal life (you most likely aren't):

    1) Nobody actually does that, and nobody should have to, because they want to play a game. Taking steps like using a fake e-mail, a prepaid credit card that somehow doesn't connect to your info, disabling all geo-logging (I'm not even sure the game can be payed without at all) is ridiculous advice for someone who is concerned about their data. Even if everyone should take responsibility for their own data, that does not absolve shady to outright predatory companies from their misdeeds. And everybody should feel eternally grateful that legislation is slowly catching up to that fact.
    2) I still don't want to be monetized, especially if I pay for the content directly. If that somehow isn't enough to keep the lights on, then maybe your business plan is bad.

    Yes, data protection is harder to grasp than a burglary. If someone collects your credit card number, you will still have it, while a stolen iPad will be gone. But at least make an effort to understand what the issues here are before dismissing legitimate concerns.

    Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but I am not failing to understand the "legitimate concerns" that have been expressed, I'm failing to understand why people who feel that way don't quit.

    Yes, you have made that clear. And it has been brought to your attention that at least one player and community contributor has indeed quit the game over this, and that many others are currently in a limbo awaiting final clarifications for these concerns.

    And I have a lot of respect for that one player and community contributor. And yes, that has been brought to my attention, but I do not see why that means I need to stay silent forever when others are so comfortable restating positions about how serious this is that have been brought to our attention. I am not trying to confront you here, I just think that if we are truly in a holding pattern we should all be held to the same standard; if you get to keep repeating yourself, it would be nice if you extended other people the same courtesy.
  • Bylo Band wrote: »
    This is my last post in this thread. I have been hurt deeply by this issue, not the wall itself but the damage this has done to the community, and I came in here to express my hurt. I want to thank Dirk again for understanding that and taking my words for what they were and giving me a straight answer and not trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning.

    I was not "trying to manufacture a hidden nefarious meaning", I was surprised at a remarkable lack of empathy.

    There are very few posters in here I hold in thoroughly low regard, and you're not one of them.
  • (HGH)Apollo(HGH)Apollo ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2020
    [DCC] bebe wrote: »
    What info do people think is going to be taken and sold? You can use an email just for the game and use prepaid cards to purchase then TP does not really have any more information than any other site provided you ignore the surveys. Star Trek Timelines is not like Facebook which has all of your personal photos, information, posts, preferences and is selling them to Russian intelligence, spy software companies and every other unscrupulous agency that will pay them money. TP has even said they have set a default of not sharing your info which Facebook refused to do with Cambridge Analytica.

    TP/WRG may not be collecting, storing or selling our data and that's not the big issue that we're protesting. We're protesting the new collaboration between TP/WRG and ironSource with the inclusion of ironSources SDK in STT. We want to know when the ironSource SDK starts collecting our info: 1) when the game loads, 2) when we open the Offer Wall but don't do any offers or 3) only after we start an offer. We also want to know what info is collected by ironSource since they openly brag that they can and do collect end user (that's your's and mine) info even when privacy settings are set to deny them access to info.

    Yes Ironsource has a website where they talk a big game to get companies to work with them. What information do you have on the game that you are afraid is going to be taken and sold? Tilting Point has access to a very limited amount of information from the players. Much less than most games and companies. I fail to see the harm if a backup email is sold to advertisers. Heck, Equifax, multiple banks, and other businesses already had most people’s information and gave it to the world for free when they improperly secured it and allowed it to be hacked. What info do you think Tilting Point has that is not known from dozens of other things you do on the internet like google, amazon, Facebook, and other assorted businesses that required much more personal information than Tilting Point? If you are still worried then ignore the offer wall. Ignore the surveys. Change your game email to one you don’t use much. Use a prepaid card. Unless you can prove somehow Ironsource is going to take other information from you besides the limited info in the game which you can take precautions against I see no damages or cause for alarm.

    Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that ignoring the wall means ironSource doesn’t have access to your data. But this has NOT been verified. You’re also making the assumption that the data they can collect is limited to the game. This has also NOT been verified. ironSource deals in information. I doubt they care one way or another how many chrons we all have stashed. So what information DO they care about? Your guess is as good as mine. There’s an infinite number of reasons that any given player may not want to share their data with ironSource. They’re under no obligation to justify those reasons to you, TP, or ironSource. That’s what PRIVACY means.

    I have used offer walls in other games and have used this offer wall in this game and not had any problems. You accuse me of making assumptions without proof then make accusations without proof. What proof do you have that Ironsource can get your information if you don’t use the offer wall? What proof do you have that they can get into your device outside of the game? I understand people being concerned about privacy issues but where does it end? Is your Wi-FI safe? Is your internet company? Is being online at all safe? You seem to have written yourself into a corner where you will only feel safe if TP can prove a negative or abandons a project they put money into and end a revenue stream. Neither seems possible or likely. Even if TP was somehow able to prove that Ironsource was not taking your info I am not sure that would satisfy you. Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.

    Dude, you ARE making an assumption that by not interacting with the offer wall, ironSource is NOT collecting our data. I’m not saying that is definitely not the case. I’m saying that TP hasn’t confirmed that that ISN’T the case. Despite the fact that the question has been asked REPEATEDLY. If you want to assume that that’s the way it is, fine. But don’t expect the rest of us to to assume the same, when ironSource’s own website says something different and TP refuses to answer the question.

    To quote Carl Sagan, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” You are making the claims, provide the evidence.

    I have not had any problem with this offer wall or others. I am following Occam’s razor. You are the one claiming that Ironsource could get info outside of the offer wall from everyone even those not using the offer wall and that they could also get info from outside of the game. The onus is on you to provide the evidence for these claims. Just as if I claimed ghosts were real and you said they were not the onus would be on me to prove it. The evidence burden is on the person making the claims. I could not say ghosts were real, provide no evidence, and say that our two opinions were equal. You would rightly say there is no evidence of ghosts and until there is extraordinary evidence to support my extraordinary claim it cannot be said ghosts are real.
    Let’s fly!
  • Emperor Borg Drone (SC)Emperor Borg Drone (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2020
    [DCC] bebe wrote: »
    What info do people think is going to be taken and sold? You can use an email just for the game and use prepaid cards to purchase then TP does not really have any more information than any other site provided you ignore the surveys. Star Trek Timelines is not like Facebook which has all of your personal photos, information, posts, preferences and is selling them to Russian intelligence, spy software companies and every other unscrupulous agency that will pay them money. TP has even said they have set a default of not sharing your info which Facebook refused to do with Cambridge Analytica.

    TP/WRG may not be collecting, storing or selling our data and that's not the big issue that we're protesting. We're protesting the new collaboration between TP/WRG and ironSource with the inclusion of ironSources SDK in STT. We want to know when the ironSource SDK starts collecting our info: 1) when the game loads, 2) when we open the Offer Wall but don't do any offers or 3) only after we start an offer. We also want to know what info is collected by ironSource since they openly brag that they can and do collect end user (that's your's and mine) info even when privacy settings are set to deny them access to info.

    Yes Ironsource has a website where they talk a big game to get companies to work with them. What information do you have on the game that you are afraid is going to be taken and sold? Tilting Point has access to a very limited amount of information from the players. Much less than most games and companies. I fail to see the harm if a backup email is sold to advertisers. Heck, Equifax, multiple banks, and other businesses already had most people’s information and gave it to the world for free when they improperly secured it and allowed it to be hacked. What info do you think Tilting Point has that is not known from dozens of other things you do on the internet like google, amazon, Facebook, and other assorted businesses that required much more personal information than Tilting Point? If you are still worried then ignore the offer wall. Ignore the surveys. Change your game email to one you don’t use much. Use a prepaid card. Unless you can prove somehow Ironsource is going to take other information from you besides the limited info in the game which you can take precautions against I see no damages or cause for alarm.

    Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that ignoring the wall means ironSource doesn’t have access to your data. But this has NOT been verified. You’re also making the assumption that the data they can collect is limited to the game. This has also NOT been verified. ironSource deals in information. I doubt they care one way or another how many chrons we all have stashed. So what information DO they care about? Your guess is as good as mine. There’s an infinite number of reasons that any given player may not want to share their data with ironSource. They’re under no obligation to justify those reasons to you, TP, or ironSource. That’s what PRIVACY means.

    I have used offer walls in other games and have used this offer wall in this game and not had any problems. You accuse me of making assumptions without proof then make accusations without proof. What proof do you have that Ironsource can get your information if you don’t use the offer wall? What proof do you have that they can get into your device outside of the game? I understand people being concerned about privacy issues but where does it end? Is your Wi-FI safe? Is your internet company? Is being online at all safe? You seem to have written yourself into a corner where you will only feel safe if TP can prove a negative or abandons a project they put money into and end a revenue stream. Neither seems possible or likely. Even if TP was somehow able to prove that Ironsource was not taking your info I am not sure that would satisfy you. Your side wanted a statement on privacy from TP and assurance that players’ information was safe but when TP gave that you were still not satisfied.

    Dude, you ARE making an assumption that by not interacting with the offer wall, ironSource is NOT collecting our data. I’m not saying that is definitely not the case. I’m saying that TP hasn’t confirmed that that ISN’T the case. Despite the fact that the question has been asked REPEATEDLY. If you want to assume that that’s the way it is, fine. But don’t expect the rest of us to to assume the same, when ironSource’s own website says something different and TP refuses to answer the question.

    To quote Carl Sagan, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” You are making the claims, provide the evidence.

    I have not had any problem with this offer wall or others. I am following Occam’s razor. You are the one claiming that Ironsource could get info outside of the offer wall from everyone even those not using the offer wall and that they could also get info from outside of the game. The onus is on you to provide the evidence for these claims. Just as if I claimed ghosts were real and you said they were not the onus would be on me to prove it. The evidence burden is on the person making the claims. I could not say ghosts were real, provide no evidence, and say that our two opinions were equal. You would rightly say there is no evidence of ghosts and until there is extraordinary evidence to support my extraordinary claim it cannot be said ghosts are real.

    Apparently IronSource themselves claim that they can on their website. Someone posted quotes from it.

    And then there's this:
    Here are some of the domains that the game tries to connect to when starting up. Again, I don't know for a fact if this is a recent change or not; I can't downgrade the game version on iOS to do a side-by-side, but if someone is using Android and an ad blocker we'd all appreciate a comparison to see what was there before and if something was added recently. I don't know what information would be sent to these addresses, I'm only looking at DNS queries / connection attempts (you'd need a MITM proxy to look at the actual data being sent if someone has the time to dig into that).

    So again, the scenario is just starting the application, not interacting with the "free dilithium" button at all: supersonicads.com , adcolony.com , applovin.com , swrve.com , hyprmx.com , app-measurement.com , appsflyer.com , unityads.unity3d.com, applvn.com , adtilt.com , doubleclick.net , ssacdn.com , crashlytics.com.

    Some of these are not entirely shady (for example crashlytics.com can also be used for ethical / anonymized telemetry which can help the developers improve the game), most are.

    It's not evidence, but I think those are some of the things that made people suspicious.
  • I fully understand why this is happening and your reason to protest... i dislike the offer wall as much as the next captain but it’s certainly getting a bit annoying... oh let me just check- nope! hmm i wonder- guess i’ll keep wondering! so i guess what i’m trying to say is some players (new and old) including 3+ years players like myself rely on this *very* helpful tools and it’s a bit disappointing knowing that protesting TP is also hurting the community in some ways. i will survive but hope the book and other resources will be back up...someday 🖖🖖🖖
    “What's a knockout like you doing in a computer-generated gin joint like this?”

    Proud member of Patterns of Force
    Captain Level 99
    Played since January 2017

    TP: Do better!!!
  • ~peregrine~~peregrine~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    Y'all acting like DB never leaked everyone's email addresses before (thanks for the Mirror Spock!) and the backlash wasn't this intense, lasting, and severe.

    Ah, memories. I started playing just after that mass email was sent, so I wasn't included in it and didn't get a Spock. But I was in time to see the turmoil on the old forum, and I recall at least a few players quit because they felt that some pixels in the game was an insulting compensation for exposing their email addresses. I understood their anger, and it made me uncomfortable. But I'm always willing to give someone a chance to explain themselves and try to rectify things, so I didn't immediately quit. DB owned up to it, offered an explanation without making excuses, and severed their partnership with the email server so it couldn't happen again. I was mollified by that.

    I'm still trying to give TP time to properly address this, as the statement we were given struck me as a placeholder. I can appreciate that this is more intricate than the email server partnership. It disappoints me greatly to hear a message from other players that instead of trying to give TP a chance to make this right that I should just leave. That feels extremely dismissive of me, and also unfair to TP for me to not let them do something that might rectify this.

    +1. Thus, I abide. No premium campaign, though, until y’all get this straight.

    I mean, really. This is just frakking sad now. Do better.
    "In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
This discussion has been closed.